This officer should be court martialed

[Goenitz]

Ok, lets assume that is true -
What is the hard blow at the head?
Nasser type situation? After all that fixed everything in Egypt right?

Or what else?
I keep hearing the ad nauseum on what needs to happen in some brief idea - but no actual plan on who, what , how - and then what's next.

At the end it all sounds like the usual cult harping -
To give you another "cult" that does this and was taken down by an elected leader -
Musharraf had this whatever baked idea of Kargil and presented it to Benazir- and she basically cut him down to size by asking "then what, General?" and Mushy had no answer.

Since many of those who support PTI blindly(not pointing to you) of which many dont even have the actual morals or frankly intelligence it seems to reply to when I probe their tape recorder postings - Ill ask you "Then what, @Goenitz ?"

I am just debating that GHQ will only buckle under force (physical, economic, international, etc.). No one can negotiate with that, or some businessmen, Lt. Gens, COAS (r) would have done that. Sadly, even the British Empire could be reasoned with.

I am also not discussing any plan, as everything is subjective. However, we must have accountability everywhere. Be it independent media, courts, police/FIA, etc. Then, checks and balances in the judiciary and the COAS office, especially in promotions (IA and indian courts are examples). In the end, everything will follow.

In summary, to change a company, country or any organisation, change its HR department. Our HR department is currently GHQ, which appoints politicians, police chiefs, favourite contractors, journalists, ECP, etc.

The last time civilians could do that, Bhutto himself wanted to enjoy being the civil chief marshal law administrator. Most likely, reforms will only come after another incident.

 

[Qureshi]

I am just debating that GHQ will only buckle under force (physical, economic, international, etc.). No one can negotiate with that, or some businessmen, Lt. Gens, COAS (r) would have done that. Sadly, even the British Empire could be reasoned with.

I am also not discussing any plan, as everything is subjective. However, we must have accountability everywhere. Be it independent media, courts, police/FIA, etc. Then, checks and balances in the judiciary and the COAS office, especially in promotions (IA and indian courts are examples). In the end, everything will follow.

In summary, to change a company, country or any organisation, change its HR department. Our HR department is currently GHQ, which appoints politicians, police chiefs, favourite contractors, journalists, ECP, etc.

The last time civilians could do that, Bhutto himself wanted to enjoy being the civil chief marshal law administrator. Most likely, reforms will only come after another incident.

I think your “HR department” analogy is actually the key point here. In fact, in many key institutions, ex-military generals or serving military officers are appointed to important positions. GHQ has influence over who gets appointed, promoted or removed across many of the important state institutions. So changing one politician, one government or even one COAS doesn't really solve the underlying problem. The system simply keeps producing the same outcome.

1. Control over institutions:
   The issue goes much beyond politics. The influence extends into the judiciary, bureaucracy, police/FIA, media, ECP & the political class even Mullas. When you have influence over who gets key positions & who moves up, it becomes very difficult for those institutions to act completely independently or hold the establishment accountable.
2. Economic interests:
   Then there is the huge military-linked business & real estate network — Fauji Foundation, AWT, Askari, Bahria Foundation, Shaheen Foundation, DHA & others. Whatever one's opinion about these organizations, the size of these interests means you can't really talk about institutional reform while pretending the military's economic footprint doesn't exist.
3. Informal trade:
   The same applies to the border economy. Smuggling & informal trade with Iran & Afghanistan have existed for decades despite fencing & tighter controls. There are obviously many layers to it, but the continued scale of it raises legitimate questions about who benefits, who protects these networks & why they remain so difficult to control.
4. Political engineering:
   And this brings us back to the HR department point. If one institution can influence political alliances, governments, senior bureaucratic appointments, police leadership & other important positions, then it also has influence over the people who are supposed to keep that institution in check.

So, for me, the solution isn't simply “change the government”. That only changes the people at the top. The real change has to be in the system of appointments, promotions & accountability itself.

Until that happens, we will keep going around in circles. And this is ultimately where the “state within a state” argument comes from. The military is supposed to be an institution of the state, but when it becomes powerful enough to influence the other institutions that are meant to oversee & constrain it, it starts functioning almost like a state within the state.

 

[Goenitz]

I think your “HR department” analogy is actually the key point here. In fact, in many key institutions, ex-military generals or serving military officers are appointed to important positions. GHQ has influence over who gets appointed, promoted or removed across many of the important state institutions. So changing one politician, one government or even one COAS doesn't really solve the underlying problem. The system simply keeps producing the same outcome.

1. Control over institutions:
   The issue goes much beyond politics. The influence extends into the judiciary, bureaucracy, police/FIA, media, ECP & the political class even Mullas. When you have influence over who gets key positions & who moves up, it becomes very difficult for those institutions to act completely independently or hold the establishment accountable.
2. Economic interests:
   Then there is the huge military-linked business & real estate network — Fauji Foundation, AWT, Askari, Bahria Foundation, Shaheen Foundation, DHA & others. Whatever one's opinion about these organizations, the size of these interests means you can't really talk about institutional reform while pretending the military's economic footprint doesn't exist.
3. Informal trade:
   The same applies to the border economy. Smuggling & informal trade with Iran & Afghanistan have existed for decades despite fencing & tighter controls. There are obviously many layers to it, but the continued scale of it raises legitimate questions about who benefits, who protects these networks & why they remain so difficult to control.
4. Political engineering:
   And this brings us back to the HR department point. If one institution can influence political alliances, governments, senior bureaucratic appointments, police leadership & other important positions, then it also has influence over the people who are supposed to keep that institution in check.

So, for me, the solution isn't simply “change the government”. That only changes the people at the top. The real change has to be in the system of appointments, promotions & accountability itself.

Until that happens, we will keep going around in circles. And this is ultimately where the “state within a state” argument comes from. The military is supposed to be an institution of the state, but when it becomes powerful enough to influence the other institutions that are meant to oversee & constrain it, it starts functioning almost like a state within the state.

yeah.. then people argue that politicians don't do their job, or some other officer or government employee.

Nearly all appointments are based on loyalty. ISI selects secretaries and the next 1-2 tiers. The rest, like patwari, chowkidar, inspector, etc., are indebted to that 1-2 tier.

Therefore, even if a child falls into a manhole, children are out of school, lack of health/education facilities, ghost schools, law and order issues, etc, the responsibility lies with the GHQ. It is responsible for our misery and not any yahood or hinood. They are not stopping us from giving justice, rights or any good thing under the sky.

 

[SilentWatch]

these SSP and his wife can also see a court martial? Or Military JAG investigation for official software update ? Should be investigated