This officer should be court martialed

[Goenitz]

Ok, lets assume that is true -
What is the hard blow at the head?
Nasser type situation? After all that fixed everything in Egypt right?

Or what else?
I keep hearing the ad nauseum on what needs to happen in some brief idea - but no actual plan on who, what , how - and then what's next.

At the end it all sounds like the usual cult harping -
To give you another "cult" that does this and was taken down by an elected leader -
Musharraf had this whatever baked idea of Kargil and presented it to Benazir- and she basically cut him down to size by asking "then what, General?" and Mushy had no answer.

Since many of those who support PTI blindly(not pointing to you) of which many dont even have the actual morals or frankly intelligence it seems to reply to when I probe their tape recorder postings - Ill ask you "Then what, @Goenitz ?"

I am just debating that GHQ will only buckle under force (physical, economic, international, etc.). No one can negotiate with that, or some businessmen, Lt. Gens, COAS (r) would have done that. Sadly, even the British Empire could be reasoned with.

I am also not discussing any plan, as everything is subjective. However, we must have accountability everywhere. Be it independent media, courts, police/FIA, etc. Then, checks and balances in the judiciary and the COAS office, especially in promotions (IA and indian courts are examples). In the end, everything will follow.

In summary, to change a company, country or any organisation, change its HR department. Our HR department is currently GHQ, which appoints politicians, police chiefs, favourite contractors, journalists, ECP, etc.

The last time civilians could do that, Bhutto himself wanted to enjoy being the civil chief marshal law administrator. Most likely, reforms will only come after another incident.

 

[Qureshi]

I am just debating that GHQ will only buckle under force (physical, economic, international, etc.). No one can negotiate with that, or some businessmen, Lt. Gens, COAS (r) would have done that. Sadly, even the British Empire could be reasoned with.

I am also not discussing any plan, as everything is subjective. However, we must have accountability everywhere. Be it independent media, courts, police/FIA, etc. Then, checks and balances in the judiciary and the COAS office, especially in promotions (IA and indian courts are examples). In the end, everything will follow.

In summary, to change a company, country or any organisation, change its HR department. Our HR department is currently GHQ, which appoints politicians, police chiefs, favourite contractors, journalists, ECP, etc.

The last time civilians could do that, Bhutto himself wanted to enjoy being the civil chief marshal law administrator. Most likely, reforms will only come after another incident.

I think your “HR department” analogy is actually the key point here. In fact, in many key institutions, ex-military generals or serving military officers are appointed to important positions. GHQ has influence over who gets appointed, promoted or removed across many of the important state institutions. So changing one politician, one government or even one COAS doesn't really solve the underlying problem. The system simply keeps producing the same outcome.

1. Control over institutions:
   The issue goes much beyond politics. The influence extends into the judiciary, bureaucracy, police/FIA, media, ECP & the political class even Mullas. When you have influence over who gets key positions & who moves up, it becomes very difficult for those institutions to act completely independently or hold the establishment accountable.
2. Economic interests:
   Then there is the huge military-linked business & real estate network — Fauji Foundation, AWT, Askari, Bahria Foundation, Shaheen Foundation, DHA & others. Whatever one's opinion about these organizations, the size of these interests means you can't really talk about institutional reform while pretending the military's economic footprint doesn't exist.
3. Informal trade:
   The same applies to the border economy. Smuggling & informal trade with Iran & Afghanistan have existed for decades despite fencing & tighter controls. There are obviously many layers to it, but the continued scale of it raises legitimate questions about who benefits, who protects these networks & why they remain so difficult to control.
4. Political engineering:
   And this brings us back to the HR department point. If one institution can influence political alliances, governments, senior bureaucratic appointments, police leadership & other important positions, then it also has influence over the people who are supposed to keep that institution in check.

So, for me, the solution isn't simply “change the government”. That only changes the people at the top. The real change has to be in the system of appointments, promotions & accountability itself.

Until that happens, we will keep going around in circles. And this is ultimately where the “state within a state” argument comes from. The military is supposed to be an institution of the state, but when it becomes powerful enough to influence the other institutions that are meant to oversee & constrain it, it starts functioning almost like a state within the state.

 

[Goenitz]

I think your “HR department” analogy is actually the key point here. In fact, in many key institutions, ex-military generals or serving military officers are appointed to important positions. GHQ has influence over who gets appointed, promoted or removed across many of the important state institutions. So changing one politician, one government or even one COAS doesn't really solve the underlying problem. The system simply keeps producing the same outcome.

1. Control over institutions:
   The issue goes much beyond politics. The influence extends into the judiciary, bureaucracy, police/FIA, media, ECP & the political class even Mullas. When you have influence over who gets key positions & who moves up, it becomes very difficult for those institutions to act completely independently or hold the establishment accountable.
2. Economic interests:
   Then there is the huge military-linked business & real estate network — Fauji Foundation, AWT, Askari, Bahria Foundation, Shaheen Foundation, DHA & others. Whatever one's opinion about these organizations, the size of these interests means you can't really talk about institutional reform while pretending the military's economic footprint doesn't exist.
3. Informal trade:
   The same applies to the border economy. Smuggling & informal trade with Iran & Afghanistan have existed for decades despite fencing & tighter controls. There are obviously many layers to it, but the continued scale of it raises legitimate questions about who benefits, who protects these networks & why they remain so difficult to control.
4. Political engineering:
   And this brings us back to the HR department point. If one institution can influence political alliances, governments, senior bureaucratic appointments, police leadership & other important positions, then it also has influence over the people who are supposed to keep that institution in check.

So, for me, the solution isn't simply “change the government”. That only changes the people at the top. The real change has to be in the system of appointments, promotions & accountability itself.

Until that happens, we will keep going around in circles. And this is ultimately where the “state within a state” argument comes from. The military is supposed to be an institution of the state, but when it becomes powerful enough to influence the other institutions that are meant to oversee & constrain it, it starts functioning almost like a state within the state.

yeah.. then people argue that politicians don't do their job, or some other officer or government employee.

Nearly all appointments are based on loyalty. ISI selects secretaries and the next 1-2 tiers. The rest, like patwari, chowkidar, inspector, etc., are indebted to that 1-2 tier.

Therefore, even if a child falls into a manhole, children are out of school, lack of health/education facilities, ghost schools, law and order issues, etc, the responsibility lies with the GHQ. It is responsible for our misery and not any yahood or hinood. They are not stopping us from giving justice, rights or any good thing under the sky.

 

[SilentWatch]

these SSP and his wife can also see a court martial? Or Military JAG investigation for official software update ? Should be investigated

 

[Blain2]

@Mods, why is this article in the Pakistan Army section? It is a domestic issue. Please move it to the "Social and Current Events" section.

 

[SilentWatch]

@Mods, why is this article in the Pakistan Army section? It is a domestic issue. Please move it to the "Social and Current Events" section.

Mr colonel is in the pakistan army - the disgrace should live with the army branch, and please this is as chronic an issue as any vs ‘current events’ current events is Lake Ontario vs lake America.

Not Armed forces abuse of power on bloody civilians of our pakistan exceptions include citizens at min and other world not Pakistani civilians who are 2nd last in importance to only Indian citizens in pakistan they too get good ️ at least

 

[imadul]

And every other wardi walla follows the army's example. Then civilians begin imitating this thuggish behavior as well.

There is a silver lining.
Everyone hates the system internally. that's how they show their rejection of the system

 

[SilentWatch]

There is a silver lining.
Everyone hates the system internally. that's how they show their rejection of the system

I have good hope from the army - all organizations have issues… yes but they have to deliver Greater Pakistan in 20 years or less - DHA wakhan, Kashmir and water heads of the Indus River - secure water for pakistan and not do shootouts at universities simple hai really - demands need grassroots strategy as always.

As I said before - what we need is a few good men - amazing movie with Tom and Jack N.

 

[Xestan]

If you bother to read this thread, all the lies you just said have been debunked by evidence of the colonel ki biwi first verbally harassing the protestors, then grabbing a police rod and attacking them. The colonel then shows up and charges into the crowd using same tactics and after receiving a slapback, panics and points his gun at the crowd.

Here is your heroine attacking protestors with a rod.

A staff member is being blocked by afghan and PTM fake students from entering her premises of work. Kudos to her not getting scared away. The whole crowd was out to support Afghan PTM supporter harasser Jadoon.

 

[Blain2]

Mr colonel is in the pakistan army - the disgrace should live with the army branch, and please this is as chronic an issue as any vs ‘current events’ current events is Lake Ontario vs lake America.

Not Armed forces abuse of power on bloody civilians of our pakistan exceptions include citizens at min and other world not Pakistani civilians who are 2nd last in importance to only Indian citizens in pakistan they too get good ️ at least

There is a purpose for the thread "Social and Current Events" where you can vent, abuse, criticize and do whatever else you want to.

This forum here is to discuss institution related topics and not the politics of it.

By virtue of your logic, all of Pakistan's issues could be discussed in the military threads because all military are also "Pakistanis".

Let's try to keep sanity intact in these threads. You are free to discuss, abuse, curse, and whatever else you want to do in "Social and Current Events" threads.

This allows those with no interest in the politics/social events to not be bothered with in these "military" threads.

 

[imadul]

I have good hope from the army - all organizations have issues… yes but they have to deliver Greater Pakistan in 20 years or less - DHA wakhan, Kashmir and water heads of the Indus River - secure water for pakistan and not do shootouts at universities simple hai really - demands need grassroots strategy as always.

As I said before - what we need is a few good men - amazing movie with Tom and Jack N.

There are/is no savior.
Matter of the fact is system has a hemorrhage.
Army is the biggest part of the problem.
A man says I will run the affairs because I control 1.1 million guns. That's the biggest hemorrhage.

 

[SilentWatch]

There are/is no savior.
Matter of the fact is system has a hemorrhage.
Army is the biggest part of the problem.
A man says I will run the affairs because I control 1.1 million guns. That's the biggest hemorrhage.

To be honest it’s not a hemorrhage of any kind… a Islamic republic can be run by 1 man (must be Muslim)

The problem is of expectations that unfortunately live in our constitution - no one on Earth after the last prophet can truly be saqid and Ameen - heck technically the prime minister or CDF should be ready to command the deaths 1000s of people not Pakistani as necessary - we are too defensive and fighting vs seizing opportunities in a world is becoming less defense centric

Pakistan is setup politically like the Roman republic era … we just need to act like it and find Cesar

Next 50 years of pakistan will make or break it annexation (pen or ) is a legitimate Islamic way growing country wealth - see the early Islam, fatimids, ottomans, etc

 

[SilentWatch]

There is a purpose for the thread "Social and Current Events" where you can vent, abuse, criticize and do whatever else you want to.

This forum here is to discuss institution related topics and not the politics of it.

By virtue of your logic, all of Pakistan's issues could be discussed in the military threads because all military are also "Pakistanis".

Let's try to keep sanity intact in these threads. You are free to discuss, abuse, curse, and whatever else you want to do in "Social and Current Events" threads.

This allows those with no interest in the politics/social events to not be bothered with in these "military" threads.

I’ll defer to Mode and greater wisdom of the forum…

But no I don’t think everything in pakistan is military and I do distinguish between army, air navy, cyber, rocket and Special div.

Each org has objectives challenges and issues like all orgs