Turkish Engine Programs

[hyperman]

but also in Hürjet

It can't be used on the Hurjet, the diameter and size of the engine is very different.

 

[hyperman]

No, ther is no secret project going on with Hurjet.

Yeah I didn't hear about it either, which is why I was curious. I'm wondering why it happened like that. Was it b/c the designs for the Hurjet as a single engine aircraft were already frozen? I know the KAAN was initially supposed to be in the same class as the KF-21, a medium class fighter, before the F-35 and potential embargo drama, which is why they switched to the F-16 engine b/c thats the engine they have the most familiarity with and in case of any embargoes it would be the easiest engine to reverse engineer/ create a domestic equivalent of.

 

[hodor]

It can't be used on the Hurjet, the diameter and size of the engine is very different.

No, I disagree with you, the TF35 engine will most likely be used on the Hurjet.

f404 diameter 89cm

f110 diameter 90cm

The dimensions of the two engines are almost same.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Yeah I didn't hear about it either, which is why I was curious. I'm wondering why it happened like that. Was it b/c the designs for the Hurjet as a single engine aircraft were already frozen? I know the KAAN was initially supposed to be in the same class as the KF-21, a medium class fighter, before the F-35 and potential embargo drama, which is why they switched to the F-16 engine b/c thats the engine they have the most familiarity with and in case of any embargoes it would be the easiest engine to reverse engineer/ create a domestic equivalent of.

Yes, Hurjet''s design already frozen.

And no, in the case of aviation engines, reverse engineering is very difficult. It is even easier to design and produce from scratch. Kale Group thought that it could easily copy Safran turbojet engines, but it did not succeed. Thereupon, they designed and produced everything from scratch, starting from the simplest component and test centers. But 10 years late and they had to spend big money.!!

@hodor ;

F110 = 118 cm overall diameter, and 90 cm inlet diameter.

F404 = 89 cm overall diameter. Not same.

 

[hodor]

F110 = 118 cm overall diameter, and 90 cm inlet diameter.

F404 = 89 cm overall diameter. Not same.

Thank you, I didn't know.

Won't we have a single-engine aircraft using the TF35? This seems very illogical to me. Can't we make Hürjet 2?

 

[Oublious]

And no, in the case of aviation engines, reverse engineering is very difficult. It is even easier to design and produce from scratch. Kale Group thought that it could easily copy Safran turbojet engines, but it did not succeed. Thereupon, they designed and produced everything from scratch, starting from the simplest component and test centers. But 10 years late and they had to spend big money.!!

I remember Aksit told about reverse engineering a engine in a program, technially is possible but it will explode. You need to calibrate and adjust the engine and that is the difficult part if you don't have the engineering data thing he talk about it. So people who thinkg reverse engineering is the solution can dream.

 

[BaybarsHan]

 

[hyperman]

And no, in the case of aviation engines, reverse engineering is very difficult. It is even easier to design and produce from scratch. Kale Group thought that it could easily copy Safran turbojet engines, but it did not succeed. Thereupon, they designed and produced everything from scratch, starting from the simplest component and test centers. But 10 years late and they had to spend big money.!!

hmm.. if im not mistaken, wasn't the original plan was both Hurjet and KAAN would use the EJ200 or a derivative, and Turkey would work with Rolls-Royce to build a Turkish engine based on the EJ200.

This was before the sanctions threats and F-35 exclusion.

I read somewhere the reason for switching to the GE F110 powerplant was b/c of the extensive experience with the F110 so if there was ever an issue an engine like the F110 would be the easiest to produce and maintain using the existing infrastructure that exists from the F-16 program for maintaining refurbishing and license producing. Was that incorrect?

 

[hyperman]

Won't we have a single-engine aircraft using the TF35? This seems very illogical to me. Can't we make Hürjet 2?

You could... but that aircraft would no longer be a trainer aircraft, its would be an F-16 class aircraft. lol

Advanced Jet trainers come in 2 varieties,

single engine configuration like the T-50, T-7, EADS Mako or the Hurjet which use the GE 404 or the GE414 for more advanced light attack variants or some engine of that class like the EJ200

Then there is the dual engine configuration trainer, something like the M-346 which uses the Honeywell F124 engine. The TF6000 engine is in the same class as the Honeywell F124, thats why I was curious about the Hurjet.

Most modern Turbofan engines for fighter/trainer aircraft are usually most commonly in 3 different classes. note: some fans are close to this range, some might have more thrust some a little less but generally they follow this pattern.

There is the 5-6000lbf dry thrust 10,000lbf Wet(afterburner) category. Some examples of this Category are the

Ivchenko-Progress Al-222/AI-322(Ukraine, Russia),
the Honeywell F124/125(US),
the IHI XF5(Japan),
RollsRoyce Turbomeca Adour(UK),
TF6000/10000(Turkey).

There is the 11-12,000lbf dry thrust 20-22,000lbf Wet(afterburner) category. In this we have examples like the

GE 404/414(US),
RD-33/RD-93(Russia),
EJ200(UK/European consortium),
Snecma M88(French)


Then there is the 19,000lbf dry thrust 30-35,000 Wet(Afterburner) In this category we have

GE F110(US)
WS-10(China)
Al-31/41(Russia)
IHI XF9(Japan)
TF35000(Turkey)

 

[Merzifonlu]

I read somewhere the reason for switching to the GE F110 powerplant was b/c of the extensive experience with the F110 so if there was ever an issue an engine like the F110 would be the easiest to produce and maintain using the existing infrastructure that exists from the F-16 program for maintaining refurbishing and license producing. Was that incorrect?

For easy maintenance? Yes, of course. Easy to produce? If it was TOT, yes. Reverse engineering? No.

Türkiye's initial plan was to develop a relatively small and purebred air superiority fighter, like South Korea's KF21. The F35 would be used mainly to attack ground targets.

However, when Türkiye was excluded from the F35 program, plans changed. A multirole fighter jet was required. In this case, the first requirement was that the aircraft had both long range and large carrying capacity. Therefore, circumstances suddenly forced us to use an engine of the GE F110-129 size in many ways.

If the USA sells 100 F110 engines for mass production, the first 40 Kaan will start roll off the mass production line in 2028. If USA doesn't sell F110's, Kaan will wait for his domestic engine, just like Altay! This is the situation for us.

 

[hyperman]

For easy maintenance? Yes, of course. Easy to produce? If it was TOT, yes. Reverse engineering? No.

Türkiye's initial plan was to develop a relatively small and purebred air superiority fighter, like South Korea's KF21. The F35 would be used mainly to attack ground targets.

However, when Türkiye was excluded from the F35 program, plans changed. A multirole fighter jet was required. In this case, the first requirement was that the aircraft had both long range and large carrying capacity. Therefore, circumstances suddenly forced us to use an engine of the GE F110-129 size in many ways.

If the USA sells 100 F110 engines for mass production, the first 40 Kaan will start roll off the mass production line in 2028. If USA doesn't sell F110's, Kaan will wait for his domestic engine, just like Altay! This is the situation for us.

Ismael Demir had mentioned an Alternative engine source that they had held negotiations with an unnamed country as a contingency(some people speculated that its Russia or China with the Al-51 and WS-15), perhaps just as the Koreans became the alternative to the Germans, that could be a possibility until the domestic powerplant is ready.

 

[Merzifonlu]

I think, except GE F110-129, 2 engine is suitable for Kaan for now.

1- Shenyang WS-15,
2- GE F119.

You see, there is no alternative engine for Kaan.

 

[BaybarsHan]

 

[PakAl]

I think, except GE F110-129, 2 engine is suitable for Kaan for now.

1- Shenyang WS-15,
2- GE F119.

You see, there is no alternative engine for Kaan.

Ws15 should be available by 2028, it is nearly ready, if Turkey and China could establish close defence relations then this option is definitely on the table.

 

[hyperman]

Ws15 should be available by 2028, it is nearly ready, if Turkey and China could establish close defence relations then this option is definitely on the table.

WS-15 will be available much earlier than 2028, its set to enter LRIP. Idk if there will ever be close relations in defense with China, but China was willing to sell Defense Equipment before, like the HQ-9, maybe they will sell engines as well, Ismael Demir mentioned negotiations for contingencies, and people speculated either Russia or China.