Bentley777
Registered Member
How many VLS TF2000 has and how much it cost 1 unit.
Turkish Naval Programs
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Anatolian
Registered Member
The thing is that Greece also started at the same place as Turkey in the defence industry. Both countries were part of larger supply chains, gained know-how through license production and based their procurement around local defence industry involvement. Sometimes gaining outright intellectual property rights, the Leonidas/Kentavroz platforms being a prime example. But from what little I know regarding the political situation at the time in Greece, there was a new left adminstration in the 80's/90's that pretty much killed any domestic aspirations.
To some extent I understand the dillema Greece finds themselves in. They have to have a much larger military spending to keep up with Turkey, that was enough to have parity in several areas with Turkey in the past. But that is simply no longer feasible, so they prefer to focus on the most important areas where parity still can be achieved to some extent which would be the air force. However this ofcourse will come massively at the cost of other branches, the Hellenic army in particular are basically living off scraps at this point(To be fair the same case in Turkey). Even recently they were basically forced to upgrade the already old and behind M113's instead of buying new vehicles and still using old G3 rifles.
The reason why the Turkish navy is also becoming exponantially stronger is its focus on exports. Greece might have had the technological edge for a while but thanks to our focus on domestic production we can sell them in mass numbers without even adopting them. I mean we can buy so many frigates, corvettes and OPV's because they are all based on a single platform(Ada-class, Hisar-class, Istif-class, Ufuk-class and etc) that has found export succes as well so it simply because so much cheaper to build them.
Its a shame how Greece squindered and abandoned its domestic defence industry.
Foinikas
Elite Member
The irony is that in the late '70s to early '80s,the Greek defence industry was even ahead of the Turkish one. But like you said,from the politicians and maybe,maybe some of their fanboys in the military,just stopped caring. From the early 2000s onward,the Greek defence industry would just go slowly downhill.
The big problem for the Navy,came from the fact that everything went behind. For example,back in 2008-2009,the Navy wanted 6 FREMM to replace the aging Kortenaer frigates. Then the crisis started and the Germans wouldn't let us buy any. There was no money. By the time things were a bit better economically and ND took over in 2019,we had no FREMM. So we had to replace 9 frigates,upgrade or replace another 4....replace or retire some 9 or 12 FAC and 5 submarines.
The government gave the Navy 5 billion euros and the Navy said "we want 4 new frigates,modernization for the 4 MEKO 200HN and 2 interim solution ships". Hardly enough. From that,we got only ordered 3 frigates and our great leaders spent the next 3-4 years practically doing nothing. Also,the two big shipyards were basically defunct and shut down,neglected by the state for years.
But in Turkey...
At the same time,Turkey had not only modernized their MEKO frigates and already produced their Ada class corvettes,but had jumped into shipbuilding like a big country.
Soon,we started hearing about ISTIF class,TF-2000 class,better Type 214 submarines than we had,a small aircraft carrier,an intelligence gathering ship,new patrol boats,new OPVs,soon USVs and already modernized American frigates.
Then came the AA dome issue.
Our Air Defence,though for some 20 years,better and pretty strong against the Turkish Air Force(at least theoretically),had become outdated by 2022. What do I mean?
The massive use of UCAVs and loitering munitions,from Bayraktar to the cheap Ukrainian FPV drones,created a massive problem. And a lot of our equipment was already obsolete. Specifically OSA AKM,HAWK I-PIP and Velos(Skyguard system with Oerlikon AA guns and Sea Sparrow missiles).
Even the Tor-M1 and S-300PMU1 can be considered outdated now. Besides,we'll run out of spare parts and the missiles will expire at some point and since we destroyed our relations with Russia,we can't get them upgraded or get spare parts from reliable sources. Let alone new missiles.
So,after the lessons of the 2020 war in Nagorno-Karabakh and the 2022 war in Ukraine...
it took some 2 years for our government to finally decide to replace the many of the AA systems and procure even a small number of loitering munitions.
Erdogan kind of "helped" with his big talk about Tayfun,Cenk and the gazillion UAV projects. And they told the MoD they only have about 2 billion euros. And the guy started boasting "WE'LL BE MAKING AN AA DOME. NOT JUST AN ANTI-AIRCRAFT DOME,BUT ALSO AN ANTI-DRONE DOME". While before summer he used to nag about only getting 2 billion for the Air Defence.
it's all going downhill.
At the same time,Turkey made progress by producing the Korkut,Hisar,Siper. Even if they are made based on German systems,the thing is....Turkey DOES have new Air Defence systems. And our guys still can't produce(or don't want to produce)our new indigenous UCAV
Oublious
Registered Member
I see where you're coming from, but the reality in Greece isn't as dire as some of your countryman suggest.
To clarify, the Greek government, backed by the entire parliament, including Syriza, has committed to modernizing the Greek Military with an investment of 53 billion euros (~23% of your current GDP).
Over the next decade, the Greek Armed Forces will receive a range of military systems, from warships and fighter jets to advanced air defense systems.
On top of that, the Greek budget posts one surplus after another despite the enormous spending on the military.
Greek State Budget Primary Surplus €13.489 billion
Greek State Budget - Based on provisional data the state budget on a modified cash basis for Jan.-Oct. 2024, had a €6.078bln surplus
www.tovima.com
The Turkish Navy projects are financially self-sustaining - for the most parts - thanks to a growing export industry. Otherwise it would be a struggle to keep up with the Greeks.
Top Ten Navies by Aggregate Displacement, 1 January 2025 [3425x1635]
In a shake-up from past years, the Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri (Turkish Naval Forces) have displaced the Indonesian Navy as the world’s tenth largest navy by aggregate tonnage. This year they clock in at 340,768 tonnes, a huge 14.6% (43,470t) increase over their 2024 figure of just under 300,000 tonnes. The TNIAL meanwhile sits at 332,130t, only a 3.1% increase from 2024. Turkish increases came courtesy of Turkey’s first fully indigenous frigate, Istanbul, the Reis-class submarine (based on the German Type 214) and several new supply ships, including the AOR Derya.It seems unlikely that Indonesia will be able to dislodge Turkey’s position given the pace and scale of Turkish domestic production – the production of the long-running MILGEM program that has turned Turkey from an importer of warships to a producer both for its domestic market, and the export market. A prime indicator of just how far Turkish naval industry has come is the triple event of 2 January 2025, where first steel was cut on a first indigenous submarine (MILDEN), guided missile destroyer (TF-2000) and aircraft carrier (MUGEM). This adds to an existing five Istanbul frigates under construction and three fast attack craft (two for Qatar, and one of two for Indonesia). Additionally, there are presently three corvettes and four OPVs fitting out in Turkish yards (two Hisar-class OPVs for the TDK, the rest for export to Ukraine, Pakistan, and Nigeria).
Source:
hyperman
INT'L MOD
Top Ten Navies by Aggregate Displacement, 1 January 2025 [3425x1635]
In a shake-up from past years, the Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri (Turkish Naval Forces) have displaced the Indonesian Navy as the world’s tenth largest navy by aggregate tonnage. This year they clock in at 340,768 tonnes, a huge 14.6% (43,470t) increase over their 2024 figure of just under 300,000 tonnes. The TNIAL meanwhile sits at 332,130t, only a 3.1% increase from 2024. Turkish increases came courtesy of Turkey’s first fully indigenous frigate, Istanbul, the Reis-class submarine (based on the German Type 214) and several new supply ships, including the AOR Derya.
It seems unlikely that Indonesia will be able to dislodge Turkey’s position given the pace and scale of Turkish domestic production – the production of the long-running MILGEM program that has turned Turkey from an importer of warships to a producer both for its domestic market, and the export market. A prime indicator of just how far Turkish naval industry has come is the triple event of 2 January 2025, where first steel was cut on a first indigenous submarine (MILDEN), guided missile destroyer (TF-2000) and aircraft carrier (MUGEM). This adds to an existing five Istanbul frigates under construction and three fast attack craft (two for Qatar, and one of two for Indonesia). Additionally, there are presently three corvettes and four OPVs fitting out in Turkish yards (two Hisar-class OPVs for the TDK, the rest for export to Ukraine, Pakistan, and Nigeria).
Source:
Its very interesting that the Brits are somehow double the French and that Japan is so big.
Turkey has come a long way, after the MILDEN program delivers the first submarine, the entire ecosystem of naval ships should be domestic. After that the only thing left is the indigenization of the subsystems and the propulsions, which will be difficult, luckily with surface propulsion, there are plenty of choices worldwide, the main issue I worry about is Submarine propulsion and potential embargoes. Currently outside of Germany, only Japan has Conventional submarine propulsions in the Western military sphere. Even though Spain, Sweden and South Korea all built their own submarines, they are all using MTU powerplants, Even the French Scorpene subs are Using MAN engines, and some custom orders like the Indian subs build by France using MTU engines, so Germany essentially has the market cornered on this. Japan builds its own, but doesn't have a history of exports due to to their restrictive export laws.
I think there is potential for Turkey to perhaps codevelop Submarine diesel engines with South Korea. They are less likely to sanction over BS compared to Europe, and they are not as gun shy as the Japanese.
The guy who made the list posted this comment:
Phoenix_jz:
Having two >70,000-ton carriers will do that for you, and the Tide-class and the rest of the RFA do count for a lot too. SSBNs are also rather fat!
Though, bear in mind here as stated in the explainer, I haven't yet culled the five ships that were recently announced for decommissioning later this year, since they're still technically on the lists. Which is a good ~107k tonnes worth of ships...
2/6
Six HİSAR Class Offshore Patrol Ships are being produced simultaneously for the Turkish Naval Forces.
These OPVs are based on the MİLGEM ADA Class Corvette design and can be equipped with a weapon load as high as a frigate if desired. The first two ships are launched.
We're producing ships like hot cakes.
Six HİSAR Class Offshore Patrol Ships are being produced simultaneously for the Turkish Naval Forces.
These OPVs are based on the MİLGEM ADA Class Corvette design and can be equipped with a weapon load as high as a frigate if desired. The first two ships are launched.
We're producing ships like hot cakes.
Anatolian
Registered Member
Because every country should always pursue to invest and build up their own defence industry, its a shame based on these principles.
Anatolian
Registered Member
Leviathan
Registered Member
Not even PPT?
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