Turkish Naval Programs

[hyperman]

However, with Spain's positive attitude to cooperation with Turkiye on naval platforms such as TCG ANADOLU (L-400) LHD and interest in further joint programmes, Abengoa, responsible for S-80 submarines' ethanol-based AIP system, might be an option. It is also known that companies such as ASPİLSAN and AYESAŞ have developed various AIP R&D projects. Establishing a stable development for MİLDEN's AIP system, whether fully local or partnership, is important to avoid programme delays.

Turkish Submarine MİLDEN's Construction to Start in 2025 | TURDEF

Chief of the Turkish Navy Ercüment Tatlıoğlu has stated that the construction of MİLDEN national submarines will begin in 2025.

turdef.com

I thought we're going to cooperate with the Spanish but it seems like no final decision has been made yet.

To be honest, I'd rather they pursue a hygrogen fuel cell based AIP rather than an Ethanol based MEMSA type AIP, that is legit trash, its not efficient, the endurance is not great, and not as quiet as Fuel Cells.

I was under the impression that the Spaniards had a Hydrogen Fuel cell, but if they don't the MILDEN subs will end up being lower endurance and noisier with the ethanol based MEMSA design than the 214s being put in service right now.

There is also the issue with the engine, have you heard anything about where they are getting the engines from? Everyone seems to be using the MTU engines. The only ones I know that have something different are the French, everyone else using diesel subs is using German engines.

The only alternative to Germany than built their own engine is Japan, but thats a whole lot of politics over export restrictions.

 

[Oublious]

To be honest, I'd rather they pursue a hygrogen fuel cell based AIP rather than an Ethanol based MEMSA type AIP, that is legit trash, its not efficient, the endurance is not great, and not as quiet as Fuel Cells.

I was under the impression that the Spaniards had a Hydrogen Fuel cell, but if they don't the MILDEN subs will end up being lower endurance and noisier with the ethanol based MEMSA design than the 214s being put in service right now.

There is also the issue with the engine, have you heard anything about where they are getting the engines from? Everyone seems to be using the MTU engines. The only ones I know that have something different are the French, everyone else using diesel subs is using German engines.

The only alternative to Germany than built their own engine is Japan, but thats a whole lot of politics over export restrictions.

MTU engines are no problem, in fact they are using now MAN engines.

 

[hyperman]

MTU engines are no problem, in fact they are using now MAN engines.

Its a problem if Germany starts to play political games like with the Altay Engine or other secret embargoes or starts listening to greek lobbying.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Its a problem if Germany starts to play political games like with the Altay Engine or other secret embargoes or starts listening to greek lobbying.

If the hybrid power pack we have successfully tested on the E-Fırtına howitzer matures in a short time and we manage to produce all of the components of this system domestically, the products of German MTU will be completely removed from our naval platforms.

It will not be difficult to adapt an enlarged version of the hybrid power pack on E-Fırtına to our naval platforms. If the Germans impose an embargo on MTU's naval systems, the only thing that will happen is to accelerate this process.

Even if they do not impose an embargo, IMO we will make this transformation sooner or later. The Germans have already won the "Unreliable Military Systems Supplier Award"!

 

[xbat]

Hybrid systems depend on some auxiliary power like batteries when they needed for very short time , they use main+ auxiliary power at the same time , they are useless on the sea because you would need both almost every time. so auxillary battery is nothing for a ship. lets be realistic, we have to solve diesel engine problem + LM2500 type gas turbine + AIP type propulsion .

-We have some diesel engine experience but we didnt start to design an engine for naval platforms, dont know why? istanbul class have a turkish diesel generator but it is a small piece when we compare MTU ones, we have 1500hp diesel engine prototype for ALTAY too. i hope we can hear a project for main naval diesel engines soon.

-We have enough tech backround to design and manufacture LM2500 type gas turbine. but we dont have human resources and funding yet because we have urgent projects like KAAN and TF6000-TF10000 engines.

-AIP is another thing, we had some experimental designs but never heard a matured product yet

 

[hyperman]

If the hybrid power pack we have successfully tested on the E-Fırtına howitzer matures in a short time and we manage to produce all of the components of this system domestically, the products of German MTU will be completely removed from our naval platforms.

It will not be difficult to adapt an enlarged version of the hybrid power pack on E-Fırtına to our naval platforms. If the Germans impose an embargo on MTU's naval systems, the only thing that will happen is to accelerate this process.

Even if they do not impose an embargo, IMO we will make this transformation sooner or later. The Germans have already won the "Unreliable Military Systems Supplier Award"!

The Diesel engine for Submarines are very complicated, b/c its not just about power and efficiency, its about noise. The South Koreans are still using MTU engines for their KSS-III submarines, they built and those guys are well versed in building diesel engines. Same story with the Spanish S-80 Plus Submarines and the Swedish Blekinge-class submarines.

Unfortunately Submarines I'd say is the hardest puzzle, there are a ton of places that build surface propulsion for ships, but Diesel Submarine propulsion, In the Western Bloc, only Germany, France, and Japan.

France is an immediate no no, they will refuse the request outright, and with their relationship with Greece and the Anti Turkish animosity, its a terrible choice. The only option left is Germany or Japan.

 

[hyperman]

Hybrid systems depend on some auxiliary power like batteries when they needed for very short time , they use main+ auxiliary power at the same time , they are useless on the sea because you would need both almost every time. so auxillary battery is nothing for a ship. lets be realistic, we have to solve diesel engine problem + LM2500 type gas turbine + AIP type propulsion .

-We have some diesel engine experience but we didnt start to design an engine for naval platforms, dont know why? istanbul class have a turkish diesel generator but it is a small piece when we compare MTU ones, we have 1500hp diesel engine prototype for ALTAY too. i hope we can hear a project for main naval diesel engines soon.

-We have enough tech backround to design and manufacture LM2500 type gas turbine. but we dont have human resources and funding yet because we have urgent projects like KAAN and TF6000-TF10000 engines.

-AIP is another thing, we had some experimental designs but never heard a matured product yet

AIP is easier to crack than a Submarine Diesel engine. Quite a few countries have AIP but use MTU main powerplants for subs.

Surface propulsion I think its not as dire, as there are several countries that build Turbines, so if one blocks its not too difficult to pivot, also the noise issue is not as much of an issue compared to submarines, which is life and death for a submarine.

Ultimately its really not economical and feasible to build your own version of a powerplant for each and every platform. So Turkey has to choose which ones to build its own version of, based on strategic necessity in procurement, the economical side of the equation(whether its planning to build anything in a significant amount of numbers to justify building something from scratch), stuff like Tanks and helicopters, the powerplants are easier to build and you will build them in great numbers, so that makes sense. Stuff that you would only use of half a dozen platforms, its not so economical especially when there isn't a non military use for some of the things.

I think the best case scenario is potentially getting a local license production for the LM2500 in Turkey, which which is what Japan(IHI), Italy(Avio) have done and what India(HAL) did recently.

Ukraine pre war would have been a very good option as well to fall back on as well. But idk how the situation looks post war.

 

[Merzifonlu]

The Diesel engine for Submarines are very complicated, b/c its not just about power and efficiency, its about noise. The South Koreans are still using MTU engines for their KSS-III submarines, they built and those guys are well versed in building diesel engines. Same story with the Spanish S-80 Plus Submarines and the Swedish Blekinge-class submarines.

Unfortunately Submarines I'd say is the hardest puzzle, there are a ton of places that build surface propulsion for ships, but Diesel Submarine propulsion, In the Western Bloc, only Germany, France, and Japan.

France is an immediate no no, they will refuse the request outright, and with their relationship with Greece and the Anti Turkish animosity, its a terrible choice. The only option left is Germany or Japan.

I am not talking about the power systems of submarines. I am talking about the power systems of surface naval platforms. And I disagree with @xbat. Turbines are not necessarily required for surface naval platforms, I think these naval platforms can also be driven by hybrid systems.

By the way, when the TF-35000 turbofan engine developed for Kaan enters mass production, we will be able to produce turbines for naval vehicles, if I am wrong and turbines are necessary for these platforms.

Speaking of submarines, national AIP systems have been worked on for a long time. We will succeed sooner or later. Neither Germany nor Japan share technology with us in these systems. We cannot trust them. We need to eliminate them from the beginning.

 

[hyperman]

Neither Germany nor Japan share technology with us in these systems. We cannot trust them. We need to eliminate them from the beginning.

It will take a while to design a quiet diesel submarine engine, specially on your first try. Lets see what they announce for MILDEN, I would be pleasantly surprised if they announce that they will be building a Turkish propulsion system, I hope they do but its very tricky. Maybe they will announce simultaneously and that later blocks of MILDEN will be equipped with them.

 

[Merzifonlu]

I don't think a mature domestic AIP system will appear before 2035. For us, the priority right now is not submarines but adding (Kaan+Anka-3+Kızılelma) and all kinds of missile systems to the inventory.

These urgent projects will be finalized and then the experts and equipment that will be transferred to less urgent projects with sufficient financial resources. I think Milden is among these less urgent projects.

 

[Orhun]

Türkiye’s Marlin USV enhances capabilities with new 8-tube launcher.​

In previous tests, Marlin could only fire a single Kuzgun missile. However, thanks to the new launcher, Marlin can fire 8 missiles at the same time.

Marlin SİDA : 8 Adet Kuzgun Füzesine Sahip Lançer Entegre Edildi! - ULU Savunma

Marlin SİDA Tarafından ateşlenen Kuzgun KY modeli yaklaşık 20 kilometre (12,4 mil) menzil sunarak platformun stratejik caydırıcılığını artırmaktadır.

www.ulusavunma.com