U-214/S-80 vs Hangor

[Yasser76]

UAV, yes. A complete mistake from our defense ministry and defense industry.
Stealth.... sure not.

Well Turkey was given deep insights into F-35 programme as it was due to be one of three manufacturing hubs for this plane and they have a flying Stealth UCAV and KAAN. How good these are compared to F-35 is of course open to debate, but France has not even started it's FCAS yes, which is only in mock up form....

 

[Yasser76]

Egypt was badly beaten by the tiny Israel multiple times. The got senai desert through camp David agreement. Your so called mighty tall Egypt with all its efforts fail to help his puppet general haftar in Libya. Siraj govt is still there with a little help from Turkey. First read history then learn, and then come to the forum to discuss. Sindhurakshak SSBN submarine power citizen.

Sorry, but Egypt performed very well in October AWar

 

[BP2]

Well Turkey was given deep insights into F-35 programme as it was due to be one of three manufacturing hubs for this plane and they have a flying Stealth UCAV and KAAN. How good these are compared to F-35 is of course open to debate, but France has not even started it's FCAS yes, which is only in mock up form....

Even the GB, the sole 1st rank partner of F35 didn't have access to the highly secret datas about F35 stealth, so don't imagine Turkey to have such access.

Do Turkey only have an anechoic chamber ?

For France you forget the n@uron UCAV, specially made to validate Stealth technology. It was a highly successfull test bed for stealth and for delivery of weapons through internal bay.
Before n@uron, Dassault made different prototyp of UCAV (petit DUC, grand DUC, etc...) to explore stealth, widebody, without tail bird etc....

Rafale F5 will see a bigger than N@uron UCAV to fligh with.

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[Yasser76]

Firstly don't put words in my mouth. i stated "deep insights into F-35 programme" not ay "secrets"

Secondly having access to this programme puts them one step ahead of France in stealth planes, as does having a flying KAAN prototype.

N@uron is a tech deomnstrator, Turk are now putting their one into production soon

As mentioned, it is hard for any reasonable observer to conclude France is ahead here. Like with sub tech, UAVs and ships, in jet fighters, after Rafale we are seeing others catch up quickly.

This combines with France's (and Europe's) relative economic and military decline.

 

[Justin TruDont]

France is useful if you do not want to be reliant too much on the US and makes excellent equipment, only issue os the rest of the world is catching up faster then France and innovate.

South Korea, Turkey and China already make SSKs in comparable class

Turkey, South Korea and Italy already taking a lot of France's traditional naval markets

Rafale is a great success by any judgment but 5th Gen is big question mark. Looks like France will be left behind by Turkey, China, South Korea, US and even India.

South Korea and Turkey are making German U212 and U214 under license and TOT, Its a similar arrangement to what we have with French Naval Group for Scorepene Subs which now have 60% indian content .

As far as China is concerned , it will be foolish to assume that their technology now matches the French and German Submarine Tech.

As far as India is concerned , I am not in favor of buying U214 or S80 , reasons are as follows ,

S80 is an untested sub design with only 1 example in operation, which was inducted in Spanish navy in 2022.

U214/212 while being a tried and tested design with 17 Subs in service across Germany, South Korea , Turkey and Israel and having a 20 year at sea experience . It however suffers from the German Tendency to throw a hissy fit if you do anything which doesnt match up with their foreign objectives .

Indian Navy had this experience while buying U209 in the 1990s , where Germany blocked the sale of last 2 subs due to our nuke tests and we ended up with 4 u209 subs instead of 6. Germany also held up the Mid life upgrade of these subs for 12 years and they only provided the upgrade package when they were announced as one of the 2 contenders for 6 P75I ssk subs.

In my opinion, India should stick with the Scorpene class subs . They are a proven design and are also equally successful in the export market . We already have the TOT and are buying 9 of them , with the last one set to be delivered in 2030. We should order 6 additional scorpenes and be done with it. France is also helping us to Integrate Indian made AIP with these Subs and have offered the SCALP cruise missiles as part of the package for last 3 scorpene subs . These missiles are far more capable than the 180km Range Exocet Antiship missile currently carried by scorpenes . France will also have no problem if India uses VarunAstra Torpedoes or DRDO developed SLCM with these subs .

Spanish and German subs will only be capable of firing Harpoon anti ship missiles and German Heavy weight Torpedoes

 

[Yasser76]

South Korea and Turkey are making German U212 and U214 under license and TOT, Its a similar arrangement to what we have with French Naval Group for Scorepene Subs which now have 60% indian content .

As far as China is concerned , it will be foolish to assume that their technology now matches the French and German Submarine Tech.

As far as India is concerned , I am not in favor of buying U214 or S80 , reasons are as follows ,

S80 is an untested sub design with only 1 example in operation, which was inducted in Spanish navy in 2022.

U214/212 while being a tried and tested design with 17 Subs in service across Germany, South Korea , Turkey and Israel and having a 20 year at sea experience . It however suffers from the German Tendency to throw a hissy fit if you do anything which doesnt match up with their foreign objectives .

Indian Navy had this experience while buying U209 in the 1990s , where Germany blocked the sale of last 2 subs due to our nuke tests and we ended up with 4 u209 subs instead of 6. Germany also held up the Mid life upgrade of these subs for 12 years and they only provided the upgrade package when they were announced as one of the 2 contenders for 6 P75I ssk subs.

In my opinion, India should stick with the Scorpene class subs . They are a proven design and are also equally successful in the export market . We already have the TOT and are buying 9 of them , with the last one set to be delivered in 2030. We should order 6 additional scorpenes and be done with it. France is also helping us to Integrate Indian made AIP with these Subs and have offered the SCALP cruise missiles as part of the package for last 3 scorpene subs . These missiles are far more capable than the 180km Range Exocet Antiship missile currently carried by scorpenes . France will also have no problem if India uses VarunAstra Torpedoes or DRDO developed SLCM with these subs .

Spanish and German subs will only be capable of firing Harpoon anti ship missiles and German Heavy weight Torpedoes

Not really, Turkey and So Ko now moving ahead with their own designs (based on Germans) that they have full ToT and IP for. A far cry from India building subs under license.

India has no significant ToT on the Scorpene.

Regarding weapons on current Scorpnes. No Heavy weight torpedos and the relatively short ranged Exocet means they are not being used to their potential currently. France will naturally extract a hefty price for any modifications you may wish.

India missed an opportunity to have full ToT on German subs in the 80s and 90s and did not. Now it is looking at basically French subs from Spain who managed to get IP and ToT.

In many aspects chinese sub tech far supasses European tech, maybe not in Engines (they are almost there), but in weapons, electronics and propellors they are moving ahead

 

[BP2]

Sorry, but Egypt performed very well in October AWar

Yes, they fought bravely and were fierce opponents, but at the end Israel won.

But it is past. Egypt and Israel are now in peace. I hope Israel to find peace with all the arab country around the world.

 

[BP2]

India has no significant ToT on the Scorpene

You don't know (as I am).
We agreed to give them all the datas so as to fit their AIP.
Rumors about the transfert to India of the helix pump for their SSN, as an offset.

 

[silicon0000]

Yes, they fought bravely and were fierce opponents, but at the end Israel won.

But it is past. Egypt and Israel are now in peace. I hope Israel to find peace with all the arab country around the world.

Arabs need peace from Zionist illegal occupation. Israel can't exist without US and EU support. Anyway that's off topic so no need to discuss this.

 

[BP2]

In many aspects chinese sub tech far supasses European tech, maybe not in Engines (they are almost there), but in weapons, electronics and propellors they are moving ahead

Once again, no one knows.
Chinese weapons are nearly all non combat proven.
twenty five years ago, a friend of mine had the opportunity to visit a chinese frigate (where, when, how... I can't give you more details) : it was quite modern outside, but with some internal waterproof walls were made of chipboard wood !
Electronic ? how is the REAL status of their AESA? how potent are their electronical counter measures?
Weapons ? PL-10 and PL-15 missiles are more or less potent than last gen AMRAAM ?

My opinion is that chinese weapon systems, as their russian inspiration friends, are not that impressive. See the Ukrainian war results : S400, russian artillery, russian T72, 80, 90 not a match. The far bigger russian air force is not able to have the aerial supremacy.

 

[Archie]

Not really, Turkey and So Ko now moving ahead with their own designs (based on Germans) that they have full ToT and IP for. A far cry from India building subs under license.

India has no significant ToT on the Scorpene.

Regarding weapons on current Scorpnes. No Heavy weight torpedos and the relatively short ranged Exocet means they are not being used to their potential currently. France will naturally extract a hefty price for any modifications you may wish.

India missed an opportunity to have full ToT on German subs in the 80s and 90s and did not. Now it is looking at basically French subs from Spain who managed to get IP and ToT.

In many aspects chinese sub tech far supasses European tech, maybe not in Engines (they are almost there), but in weapons, electronics and propellors they are moving ahead

Indian Navy is satisfied with the performance of Scorpenes
That's why they are placing the follow on order.

As to why we didnot get the AIP for these subs in 2007 agreement,
Well It's because MESMA AIP used by the Scorpenes was found to be noisy and reduced the stealth characteristics of the French submarine.

DRDO Developed AIP is considered to be better since it's based on newer German technology .

We should wait for it's integration with INS KALVARI before questioning it's performance.

As far as weapons package is concerned
Yes the Scorpenes currently carry Russian Torpedoes . But these same torpedoes are also carried on 7 Kilo class subs and 4 U209 Subs of the Indian Navy
The entire submarine fleet will receive the VarunAstra torpedoes with deliveries having already started in Feb 2024

DRDO is developing a new 500km range SLCM , which can be launched from 533mm torpedoes tubes .
This missile will be the sub launched version of the Brahmos NG which is in development for IAF .

This missile might take some time so in the meantime Indian Navy could acquire 24 SCALP Cruise Missiles to equipe 3-4 Scorpenes

 

[Archie]

The only reason Pakistan bought the Type 39 Yuan class Subs was because it was the only one they could afford , that too with a 12 year soft loan.

Pakistan had been operating french Agosta 70 subs since 1980, they are operating the Agosta90B subs since 1997.
Scorpene is the next generation to the Agosta90B and would have been the logical upgrade for PN had India not bought them in 2007 .
India paid 4.2 Billion USD for 6 Scorpene subs
Pakistan is paying 5.2 Billion USD for 8 Type 39 Yuan class Subs

Their is not much difference in the purchase price per unit .

With only advantage of China being that they would agree for a soft loan and the French would not

 

[Yasser76]

Indian Navy is satisfied with the performance of Scorpenes
That's why they are placing the follow on order.

As to why we didnot get the AIP for these subs in 2007 agreement,
Well It's because MESMA AIP used by the Scorpenes was found to be noisy and reduced the stealth characteristics of the French submarine.

DRDO Developed AIP is considered to be better since it's based on newer German technology .

We should wait for it's integration with INS KALVARI before questioning it's performance.

As far as weapons package is concerned
Yes the Scorpenes currently carry Russian Torpedoes . But these same torpedoes are also carried on 7 Kilo class subs and 4 U209 Subs of the Indian Navy
The entire submarine fleet will receive the VarunAstra torpedoes with deliveries having already started in Feb 2024

DRDO is developing a new 500km range SLCM , which can be launched from 533mm torpedoes tubes .
This missile will be the sub launched version of the Brahmos NG which is in development for IAF .

This missile might take some time so in the meantime Indian Navy could acquire 24 SCALP Cruise Missiles to equipe 3-4 Scorpenes

No, India did not go for MESMA AIP due to cost. No where does it state MESMA is noisy. Indians have not even managed to detect a A90B

Yes, India is using lightweight short ranged Russian torpedos.

 

[Yasser76]

The only reason Pakistan bought the Type 39 Yuan class Subs was because it was the only one they could afford , that too with a 12 year soft loan.

Pakistan had been operating french Agosta 70 subs since 1980, they are operating the Agosta90B subs since 1997.
Scorpene is the next generation to the Agosta90B and would have been the logical upgrade for PN had India not bought them in 2007 .
India paid 4.2 Billion USD for 6 Scorpene subs
Pakistan is paying 5.2 Billion USD for 8 Type 39 Yuan class Subs

Their is not much difference in the purchase price per unit .

With only advantage of China being that they would agree for a soft loan and the French would not

Again, you post so much BS it is hard to take you seriously.

The cost of PN subs is wrong.

PN chose Chinese subs as we can make them part of our nuclear detterent. Indias Scorpenes will fire torpdeos and exocets, ours will fire cruise missiles

 

[Yasser76]

You don't know (as I am).
We agreed to give them all the datas so as to fit their AIP.
Rumors about the transfert to India of the helix pump for their SSN, as an offset.

Where does it state any ToT at all?