Z-10 ME/P deliveries Updates: Pakistan Army Aviation.

[Bentley777]

India already making them .. with strange names .. already inducted .. and crashing regularly as well..

They are crashing yeah but can improve so do we and also our Turks partners and Chinese partners are better than them.

 

[Michael]

Why not India is also making his own light attack helicopter. Pakistan army aviation if need to catch up in numbers both in capability and cost keeping in mind they should go for local assembly production line of attack helicopters. Someone said earlier this year in forum may be Quwa i don't remember exactly that pak is in talks with turkey for that and it's the right approach according to me. No point importing few according to requirements and needs of pak army aviation and keeping in mind adversary.

There are two central elements in a country's choice to build its own weapons:
1. Economic factors. It must be possible to achieve a lower cost of making your own than buying them outright.
2. National security. Preventing “blackmail” by arms suppliers.

At the level of economic factors, manufacturing costs are closely related to production, which is closely related to demand.
How many helicopter gunships does Pakistan need? How large a production volume do you think Pakistan needs to bring the cost down to a lower cost than what China produces?????

National Security. With Pakistan's current capabilities, it has at most an assembly capability for armed helicopters. It is fully dependent on imports for all core components. So it has nothing to do with national security issues.

Don't any weapon try to pretend to do localization. It serves no purpose other than to give the population a false impression. At the same time, it will be a massive waste of very limited national funds.
Utilizing the limited funds for the development of the country's basic industries is the right path. When Pakistan's basic industries reach a certain capacity, everything will fall into place.

 

[Ak01]

Especially if they have their own independent engine.

in our operational environment, beta testing critical tech is not the way to go.

 

[Toxic]

in our operational environment, beta testing critical tech is not the way to go.

We don't have to be beta testers, this potential purchase would be 5-6 years out by then the Turks would have throughy beta tested their engines.

 

[RafaleSlayer]

how would barq missles compare to this ?

Burq is a small, light weight and short range missile designed to be carried and fired from drones. CM502 is a purpose built missile designed to be carried and fired from attack heli's targeting enemy armor columns and their AD systems.

 

[FuturePAF]

in our operational environment, beta testing critical tech is not the way to go.

I’m sure the PA will wait for the Turks to induct the platform, operate it for a couple years, then send a couple to Pakistan for extensive evaluation in our high mountain areas. If they look promising, a dozen might be the extent of the inductions for a good number of years, split over two batches of 6.

 

[Quwa]

IMO the 'heavyweight' requirement's been settled now with the Z-10ME. The configuration and PAA's change requests all line up with what they saw in the AH-1Z (which was the originally-sought 'heavy' for contested environments, anti-armour ops, etc).

The next tier would likely be the 'lightweight' -- i.e., 4-5-ton -- for high-altitude theatres like Kashmir, FATA, etc, and less-prepared hot-temp areas like Baluchistan. T129 aside, it's worth recalling that the PAA had tested 2 Z-10s and 1 Z-19 (not 3 Z-10s).

The T129 was sought for the high-altitude and hot-temp environments. It was tested for its durability in static scenarios like unprepared air fields with no ground support equipment. I am sure the Z-19 was tested under the same conditions.

So, potentially, I'd keep an eye on this 4-5-ton requirement. We could see a second series of evaluations with potentially an upgraded Z-19 versus TS1400-equipped T129.

Or, if the PAA really wants to push things, co-develop a solution with the Turks (e.g, T629) and get their own LCH/Prachand-type solution to build in large numbers.

 

[Ak01]

We don't have to be beta testers, this potential purchase would be 5-6 years out by then the Turks would have throughy beta tested their engines.

5 years is nothing in terms of engines.
The most popular and most dependable of engines in use on helos at this moment is 65 years old. That 65 years of testing, refinement, support and upgrades

 

[Toxic]

5 years is nothing in terms of engines.
The most popular and most dependable of engines in use on helos at this moment is 65 years old. That 65 years of testing, refinement, support and upgrades

We are talking about "Beta testing" Anyway I do believe if we acquire a heavy a AH in the future it's going to be the Z-21 .

 

[FuturePAF]

IMO the 'heavyweight' requirement's been settled now with the Z-10ME. The configuration and PAA's change requests all line up with what they saw in the AH-1Z (which was the originally-sought 'heavy' for contested environments, anti-armour ops, etc).

The next tier would likely be the 'lightweight' -- i.e., 4-5-ton -- for high-altitude theatres like Kashmir, FATA, etc, and less-prepared hot-temp areas like Baluchistan. T129 aside, it's worth recalling that the PAA had tested 2 Z-10s and 1 Z-19 (not 3 Z-10s).

The T129 was sought for the high-altitude and hot-temp environments. It was tested for its durability in static scenarios like unprepared air fields with no ground support equipment. I am sure the Z-19 was tested under the same conditions.

So, potentially, I'd keep an eye on this 4-5-ton requirement. We could see a second series of evaluations with potentially an upgraded Z-19 versus TS1400-equipped T129.

Or, if the PAA really wants to push things, co-develop a solution with the Turks (e.g, T629) and get their own LCH/Prachand-type solution to build in large numbers.

Why not consider a more powerful engine on the Z-10ME for the high altitude requirement; commonality of training, equipment, maintenance, etc. also the Z-10ME has been shown to carry a MMW radar.

 

[Quwa]

Why not consider a more powerful engine on the Z-10ME for the high altitude requirement; commonality of training, equipment, maintenance, etc. also the Z-10ME has been shown to carry a MMW radar.

Yep, but I think it'd be the other way around as the Z-10ME-2 has the uprated engine. Rather, you'd want to strip it down so the weight is lighter. In this case, you might remove the ECM, for example, for COIN/CT.

However, a key goal for the lightweight requirement was actually stationary durability. The attack helicopter needed to be serviceable in places where they didn't have many -- if any -- GSE or special equipment. During tests, PAA literally just kept the T129 in a random place out in the open and in this very crude covered area to see how it'd fare overnight. The goal was to see if the T129 would start the next day without any issues (which it passed).

So, it's not just the raw performance of the helicopter, but its serviceability in rough situations and overall lifecycle costs too.

 

[Reichmarshal]

I am surprised at the hissy fit thst a few of the members have thrown in response to my post.
This making them selves sound like they are the nationals of a nation which operated star ship enterprise in nos. And other warp speed capable star fighters.

But the reality is that the PAF operates around 150 legacy 3rd gen ac which become operational in the 1960s thats 60 plus years.

So why the ho ha over a attack hele fleet that is legacy but has been receiving contious upgrades since its induction, with a comprehensive mlu in early 2000s. Even thought they have seen extensive combat service but due the constant and consistent availability of spares, good support infrastructure and a dedicated and competent force of support and mantinance engineers. The cobra fleet has been kept in good air worthy condition to date.

Even though the arm chair warriors would like PAA to operate a fleet of warp speed capable and laser shooting helo.
But in the real world u got to make do ( to the best of ur ability and capability) with wt u got not wt u wanted n in the process not to sound like modi " aghar rafale hota", we know that went.

 

[Toxic]

I am surprised at the hissy fit thst a few of the members have thrown in response to my post.
This making them selves sound like they are the nationals of a nation which operated star ship enterprise in nos. And other warp speed capable star fighters.

But the reality is that the PAF operates around 150 legacy 3rd gen ac which become operational in the 1960s thats 60 plus years.

So why the ho ha over a attack hele fleet that is legacy but has been receiving contious upgrades since its induction, with a comprehensive mlu in early 2000s. Even thought they have seen extensive combat service but due the constant and consistent availability of spares, good support infrastructure and a dedicated and competent force of support and mantinance engineers. The cobra fleet has been kept in good air worthy condition to date.

Even though the arm chair warriors would like PAA to operate a fleet of warp speed capable and laser shooting helo.
But in the real world u got to make do ( to the best of ur ability and capability) with wt u got not wt u wanted n in the process not to sound like modi " aghar rafale hota", we know that went.

Do you really think PAF is going to send F-7pgs into combat? No the only reason they are in service is to maintain squadron strength, constant spares and good availability??? Do you not understand the fact these are more than 40 year old helicopters??

Ah yes making do by dooming pilots to death by sending them into combat in 40 year old coffins I don't know what kind of Lala land you live in.

 

[Zarvan]

I am surprised at the hissy fit thst a few of the members have thrown in response to my post.
This making them selves sound like they are the nationals of a nation which operated star ship enterprise in nos. And other warp speed capable star fighters.

But the reality is that the PAF operates around 150 legacy 3rd gen ac which become operational in the 1960s thats 60 plus years.

So why the ho ha over a attack hele fleet that is legacy but has been receiving contious upgrades since its induction, with a comprehensive mlu in early 2000s. Even thought they have seen extensive combat service but due the constant and consistent availability of spares, good support infrastructure and a dedicated and competent force of support and mantinance engineers. The cobra fleet has been kept in good air worthy condition to date.

Even though the arm chair warriors would like PAA to operate a fleet of warp speed capable and laser shooting helo.
But in the real world u got to make do ( to the best of ur ability and capability) with wt u got not wt u wanted n in the process not to sound like modi " aghar rafale hota", we know that went.

Cobras are not getting retired soon specially as we face insurgency but Cobras were not good enough against Indian Armor columns.

 

[RafaleSlayer]

Do you really think PAF is going to send F-7pgs into combat? No the only reason they are in service is to maintain squadron strength, constant spares and good availability??? Do you not understand the fact these are more than 40 year old helicopters??

Ah yes making do by dooming pilots to death by sending them into combat in 40 year old coffins I don't know what kind of Lala land you live in.

That's comparing apples to oranges. Once PAF establishes air dominance, F7's can do their bit as well, We used mirages in 2019 for cross border attack with legacy H2/H4's.

Unlike fighter jets, attack heli are not intended to fight opposing attack helis, their job is to destroy enemy's armor columns, and they operate in the same EW environment that is used to degrade enemy's situational awareness, so cobras despite being 40 odd years old are still potent platforms.