Z-20 utility/transport, naval helicopter & Z-21 heavy attack helicopter - News and Discussions

[Oscar]

Facing a numerically superior force which also has the same weapons capability.

That’s the problem - they could sustain 10 Apache’s going down. Pakistan may not be able to afford 10 of these Z-21s

 

[S10]

China should focus on unmanned helicopters and drones instead of developing these.

 

[guangdongt]

China should focus on unmanned helicopters and drones instead of developing these.

With the increasing popularity of technologies such as air launched drones and long-range cruise missiles, the role positioning of armed helicopters is also undergoing changes. They are no longer limited to carrying out single reconnaissance or anti tank missions, but have gradually evolved into comprehensive combat nodes at the height of tree tops. At this node, armed helicopters can not only perform firepower strike missions, but also serve as a key link for information and intelligence sharing, especially for larger 10 ton armed helicopters. They not only have stronger firepower strike capabilities, but also can form an efficient cooperative combat system with drones. For example, in a wide sea area with a width of over 100 kilometers, within the tactical depth on the opposite shore of the sea, tanks are deployed ready to launch counter attacks against the beach, and your drones and missiles may not be able to completely eliminate mobile regional air defense systems.

 

[S10]

That’s the problem - they could sustain 10 Apache’s going down. Pakistan may not be able to afford 10 of these Z-21s

Majority of Russian Ka-52 and Mi-28 losses were due to offensive operations against Ukraine. They had to expose themselves to enemy short range air defenses. In a defensive battle their losses were significantly lower as they could attack from behind the front line. Pakistan will be in a defensive posture against India in a war, so I don't think it will be too much of an issue.

 

[gambit]

With the increasing popularity of technologies such as air launched drones and long-range cruise missiles, the role positioning of armed helicopters is also undergoing changes. They are no longer limited to carrying out single reconnaissance or anti tank missions, but have gradually evolved into comprehensive combat nodes at the height of tree tops. At this node, armed helicopters can not only perform firepower strike missions, but also serve as a key link for information and intelligence sharing, especially for larger 10 ton armed helicopters. They not only have stronger firepower strike capabilities, but also can form an efficient cooperative combat system with drones. For example, in a wide sea area with a width of over 100 kilometers, within the tactical depth on the opposite shore of the sea, tanks are deployed ready to launch counter attacks against the beach, and your drones and missiles may not be able to completely eliminate mobile regional air defense systems.

If you are going to copy/paste, at east be honest enough to give the source.

 

[guangdongt]

If you are going to copy/paste, at east be honest enough to give the source.

http://www.myzaker.com/article/65fd58b98e9f095e9906c344

No problem, I hope you can understand Chinese with machine translation
As a reference, there is also a Chinese article here

百度安全验证

ml.mbd.baidu.com

 

[Hendarto]

Majority of Russian Ka-52 and Mi-28 losses were due to offensive operations against Ukraine. They had to expose themselves to enemy short range air defenses. In a defensive battle their losses were significantly lower as they could attack from behind the front line. Pakistan will be in a defensive posture against India in a war, so I don't think it will be too much of an issue.

Not accurate yes that was happened early in the war. But Russia modified the tactic by launching long-range ATGM Vikhr 10 miles when the opportunity arose and scooting away before Ukro radar acquired them. BTW it is interesting that the Chinese learned a lesson on how to utilize helicopters in the war

However, the article noted that assessments of the Ka-52 significantly altered after its strong performance during Ukraine's summer counteroffensive. The Alligator attack helicopters were credited with destroying high numbers of Ukrainian armored vehicles, including the most advanced Western types, such as Leopard tanks and Bradley AFVs. The report noted that the UK minister of defense had been disturbed by these battlefield developments and the Chinese assessment suggested that that defense analysts have rebranded the Russian Alligator attack helicopter as “Putin's Vulture” or the “NATO Tank Killer.”

The Chinese analysis posited that the new effectiveness of these Russian attack helicopters can be attributed to the development of “appropriate tactics.” Initially, the Alligators were simply “too exposed to fire from the Ukrainian armed forces' battlefield air defense network…”

Of course, the new tactics were partly enabled by Ukraine's combat vehicles revealing themselves as they went on the offensive, the article explains. Instead of attempting to penetrate dense air defenses, the helicopters are instead called in “on demand” to destroy targets of opportunity, while then rapidly exiting the battlefield. Apparently, such “hit and run” tactics do not allow the Ukrainian side to target the Russian attack helicopters effectively.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2024/02/china-looks-to-ukraine-war-for-guidance-on-attack-helicopters.html#:~:text=Instead%20of%20attempting%20to%20penetrate,the%20Russian%20attack%20helicopters%20effectively.

 

[Hendarto]

The new helicopter will no doubt be heavily protected with Dircom and ballistic armor protection The Chinese learned from Ukro war and will incorporate lessons from that war they were impressed with Ka 52 and Hind They have a positive assessment on the use of helicopter in the war

Thus, there are many reasons to pay attention to a late 2023 Chinese language analysis of Ka-52 operations in the Russian war in Ukraine. The overall theme of this article is that the Russian helicopter's combat record has achieved an improbable comeback.

Helicopters appear to be at the very heart of any Chinese strategy to conquer Taiwan, since they can provide both extensive air cover and firepower for amphibious forces coming ashore.
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The article recapped the struggles of Russian helicopter aviation during the first phase of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. UK Ministry of Defense data was cited to suggest that as many as 39 Ka-52s might have been lost in the early part of the Russian invasion—amounting to a quarter of the Russian fleet of Alligators. According to this Chinese analysis, these significant losses caused a “sense of astonishment,” at least among Western commentators. Likewise, it is said that the helicopter had performed below expectations and that Russia would have trouble replacing such high losses.

However, the article noted that assessments of the Ka-52 significantly altered after its strong performance during Ukraine's summer counteroffensive. The Alligator attack helicopters were credited with destroying high numbers of Ukrainian armored vehicles, including the most advanced Western types, such as Leopard tanks and Bradley AFVs. The report noted that the UK minister of defense had been disturbed by these battlefield developments and the Chinese assessment suggested that that defense analysts have rebranded the Russian Alligator attack helicopter as “Putin's Vulture” or the “NATO Tank Killer.”

The Chinese analysis posited that the new effectiveness of these Russian attack helicopters can be attributed to the development of “appropriate tactics.” Initially, the Alligators were simply “too exposed to fire from the Ukrainian armed forces' battlefield air defense network…”

 

[Bilal]

And also lose more if it goes down -
Contested air spaces it may be better to find a solution which can fire loitering munitions from behind the flot but deliver enough firepower when needed.

Chinese Attach helicopters are already armed with NLOS solutions include CM501XA mini cruise missile/loitering munition.

 

[Oscar]

Chinese Attach helicopters are already armed with NLOS solutions include CM501XA mini cruise missile/loitering munition.

Probably the way to go but it also depends on the theatre of conflict.

Northern areas the Choppers will fare better or in hilly undulations - down south in the open desert its very much fly at bushtop height or get shot it by sams.

 

[Bilal]

Probably the way to go but it also depends on the theatre of conflict.

Northern areas the Choppers will fare better or in hilly undulations - down south in the open desert its very much fly at bushtop height or get shot it by sams.

Lots to learn from Ukraine conflict. That’s why NLOS munition is going to be crucial plus mast top MMW.

 

[Fatman17]

Z-21

The first glimpse of a new heavy attack helicopter (Z-21?) in the same class of American AH-64 and Russian Mi-28 was released in March 2024. This project is believed to have been progressing at 602/Hafei/Changhe for some years following the development of Z-20 (~2018). Consequently its power plant and rotor systems are speculated to have been borrowed directly from Z-20 in order to speed up the development and reduce the risk. It also shares an almost identical tail section with Z-20 but the fuselage appears much slimmer in order to adopt an Apache style tandem cockpit configuration. A comprehensive package of self-defense measures has been installed throughout the body. The engine exhausts appear to face upwards in order to reduce its IR signature. A lethal 30mm gun is expected to be installed underneath the forward fuselage instead of the nose. Each of the two Mi-28 style stub wings has three hardpoints underneath. New AAMs including PL-10 may be carried at the wingtip. As Army’s first 10t class attack helicopter, Z-21 is expected to enter the service in a relatively fast pace within 2-3 years. Compared with the smaller Z-10, Z-21 is believed to have a better performance and a stronger armor protection, while carrying a heavier payload. First flight was rumored to have occurred in January 2024. Currently Z-21 is thought to be undergoing flight tests at Hafei. Multiple prototypes may have been built.
- Last updated 3/22/24

 

[Fatman17]

New Chinese Z-20 ‘armed assault' variant emerges​

2024-05-23

The PLA Daily published an image on 20 May 2024, showing a Harbin Z-20 with an EO/IR pod in the nose and stub wings for weapons, suggesting that the PLA may have inducted an armed/assault version of the helicopter. (PLA Daily/US DoD/Janes)
The Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) has revealed that it has developed a new armed assault variant of China's Harbin Z-20 utility helicopter.
Images of the new variant were published in the PLA Daily newspaper on 20 May 2024 in connection with a report on an NCO serving with the PLA's 76th Group Army as a flight mechanic.
The photograph showed two Z-20s in flight, out of which the aircraft in the foreground was equipped with high-mounted stub wings (each with possibly two underwing hardpoints) and an electro-optic/infrared (EO/IR) pod in the nose. The PLA Daily captioned the photo as “a new type of domestic helicopter flying with iron wings”.
The photograph also showed the aircraft in PLA colours, albeit without a serial number. It is unclear if the aircraft has entered military service.
This new variant, which Chinese military observers have tentatively designated as Z-20W, appears to have been in development for at least three years. In December 2020 a similarly configured Z-20 was seen undergoing flight-testing. At that time, the helicopter carried four KD-9, or likely KD-10, anti-tank guided missiles and one rocket pod under each wing stub. However, the helicopter did not possess an EO/IR pod in the nose.

 

[Fatman17]

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

While I understand the armed assault role, dedicated attack role has taken a hit after the Russo Ukraine war. Too risky(expensive )to deploy a $16 million dollars alligator against one or two tanks (since there are no mass tank assaults). Russians have been using Orlon ($100k) + Lancet ($30k) combination to deal with this problem.

The heli gunships are either used as artillery (unguided rocket salvos) or to defend when there is a major offensive, like in 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive where armour density on the battlefield was higher and it was then Worth the risk.

Americans recently cancelled their Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft (FARA) program due to this war. I wonder how hot is Pakistan for ATAK and Z-10s now.