The Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict

[Qaraca]

Ever since the karabah war, my perspective vis a vis Armenia and Azerbaijan has changed, I constantly side with Armenian narrative and tbh it's more like our Kashmir scenario where the actually succeeded and took what was theirs they committed atrocities there is no justifying that but it was always Armenian.
Azeris are Muslim brothers no doubt about but ......

Karabakh was a part of Azerbaijan Republic of 1918-1920, and Azerbaijan joined USSR with Karabakh already a part of it. In 1923, Nagorno-Karabakh autonomous oblast (NKAO) was created within Azerbaijan SSR, but oblasts were subjects of their respective republics. So when USSR dissolved, Azerbaijan became independent within the borders of Azerbaijan SSR, again with Karabakh a part of it. From international legal point of view, Karabakh was and is unequivocally a part of Azerbaijan. There is no ambiguity here.

Alma-Ata protocol established the borders of newly independent former Soviet Republics. This is international law.

Alma-Ata Protocol - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"It was always Armenian"

According to what? If you mean the population, Nagorno-Karabakh oblast was not exclusively Armenian populated. In 1989 the population was approx 75% Armenian and 25% Azerbaijani.

But the matter becomes more complicated and different from examples like Kosovo when you take into account that Armenians not only occupied Nagorno-Karabakh oblast, but 7 districts outside of it that were twice the size of NKAO itself with 0 Armenian population. Half a million Azerbaijanis became IDPs from those areas. For context the entire Karabakh Armenian population is 150 thousand.

Armenian-occupied territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Armenian narrative" is one where reality is twisted. Did you even know about 7 districts outside of NKAO? Or are you saying this was also part of what they "took as theirs"?

This is what Agdam town looked like. Every Azerbaijani settlement under Armenian occupation was looted brick by brick.

 

[Qaraca]

There is an Azerbaijani saying, “insafın olsun”, for things like this. Maybe you have the word “insaf" in Urdu too with different pronunciation (I know Persian has "ensaf"), it’s an Arabic loanword. Have some insaf.

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[Qaraca]

What Thomas de Waal describes about Agdam was repeated in every Azerbaijani settlement like said.

This was Jabrayil. Not a single structure intact. Not a result of combat, but post-war looting.

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[hasssanali8998]

. Maybe you have the word “insaf" in Urdu too with different pronunciation (I know Persian has "ensaf")

yes it means justice and with the same pronunciation .

 

[Qaraca]

Alma-Ata protocol established the borders of newly independent former Soviet Republics. This is international law.

Alma-Ata Protocol - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Alma-Ata protocol forms the basis of peace negotiations. For example, 2022 Prague statement (Armenia-Azerbaijan-EU):

“Armenia and Azerbaïdjan confirmed their commitment to the Charter of the United Nations and the Alma Ata 1991 Declaration through which both recognize each other’s territorial integrity and sovereignty.”

Statement following quadrilateral meeting between President Aliyev, Prime Minister Pashinyan, President Macron and President Michel, 6 October 2022

Statement following quadrilateral meeting between President Aliyev, Prime Minister Pashinyan, President Macron and President Michel, 6 October 2022

www.consilium.europa.eu

 

[Qaraca]

yes it means justice and with the same pronunciation .

Not justice but conscience. But I will chalk it to ignorance.

 

[hasssanali8998]

Not justice but concience. But I will chalk it to ignorance.

i meant in Urdu

 

[Qaraca]

There have been debates in Armenia regarding the history of Karabakh negotiations. Kremlin made a statement today regarding that, coincidentally as we talk about the Karabakh conflict.

If UN, EU, Russia and everyone else holds the same position, then what else is there to say?

Moscow: No discussions were held on Karabakh’s independence or joining Armenia

In the negotiations on Karabakh, a balance has always been sought between two components — respect for Azerbaijan’s territorial integrity in accordance with international law and principles, and ensuring the interests and rights of the region’s indigenous population, said the official representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova, at a briefing today, APA's Moscow bureau reports.

She noted that no negotiations were held regarding the independence of Karabakh or its unification with Armenia.

Moscow: No discussions were held on Karabakh’s independence or joining Armenia

In the negotiations on Karabakh, a balance has always been sought between two components — respect for Azerbaijan’s territorial integrity in accordance with international law and principles, and ensuring the interests and rights of the region’s indigenous population, said the official...

en.apa.az

 

[Qaraca]

the actually succeeded and took what was theirs

Btw, everything ended badly for them. And there was never going to be another ending. Azerbaijan’s lose in the first war was due to internal chaos and infighting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Azerbaijani_coup_d%2527%C3%A9tat

 

[falcon34]

Karabakh was a part of Azerbaijan Republic of 1918-1920, and Azerbaijan joined USSR with Karabakh already a part of it. In 1923, Nagorno-Karabakh autonomous oblast (NKAO) was created within Azerbaijan SSR, but oblasts were subjects of their respective republics. So when USSR dissolved, Azerbaijan became independent within the borders of Azerbaijan SSR, again with Karabakh a part of it. From international legal point of view, Karabakh was and is unequivocally a part of Azerbaijan. There is no ambiguity here.

Alma-Ata protocol established the borders of newly independent former Soviet Republics. This is international law.

Alma-Ata Protocol - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"It was always Armenian"

According to what? If you mean the population, Nagorno-Karabakh oblast was not exclusively Armenian populated. In 1989 the population was approx 75% Armenian and 25% Azerbaijani.

But the matter becomes more complicated and different from examples like Kosovo when you take into account that Armenians not only occupied Nagorno-Karabakh oblast, but 7 districts outside of it that were twice the size of NKAO itself with 0 Armenian population. Half a million Azerbaijanis became IDPs from those areas. For context the entire Karabakh Armenian population is 150 thousand.

Armenian-occupied territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Armenian narrative" is one where reality is twisted. Did you even know about 7 districts outside of NKAO? Or are you saying this was also part of what they "took as theirs"?

This is what Agdam town looked like. Every Azerbaijani settlement under Armenian occupation was looted brick by brick.

View attachment 163416

Literally this what the indians say about Kashmir, 75% population was Armenian, this literally makes it Armenian, I hope Allah forgives for literally helping Azerbaijan in dislodging native population, I've always said if we support Azerbaijan claims our own claim to Kashmir stands null and void.
Again I am not denying the atrocities committed by the Armenians **** them for that but you cannot change reality. The better thing would be separation of karabah, which districts had azeri majority should have gone to Azerbaijan but destroying the entire native population because of a legal jurisdiction. Nah, this doesn't sit well, don't take me wrong azeris are Muslim they will forever if one we'd fight for them we will but I personally and many young Pakistanis don't give **** about legalities concerning native population, legally speaking Kashmir is part of India are you saying we drop our claim and let the indians destroy the native Muslim population of Kashmir?

 

[falcon34]

Btw, everything ended badly for them. And there was never going to be another ending. Azerbaijan’s lose in the first war was due to internal chaos and infighting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Azerbaijani_coup_d%2527%C3%A9tat

But don't think it's wrong I've those convoys of Armenians leaving karabah. You should have taken those previously majority azeri areas.

 

[Qaraca]

Literally this what the indians say about Kashmir, 75% population was Armenian, this literally makes it Armenian, I hope Allah forgives for literally helping Azerbaijan in dislodging native population, I've always said if we support Azerbaijan claims our own claim to Kashmir stands null and void.
Again I am not denying the atrocities committed by the Armenians **** them for that but you cannot change reality. The better thing would be separation of karabah, which districts had azeri majority should have gone to Azerbaijan but destroying the entire native population because of a legal jurisdiction. Nah, this doesn't sit well, don't take me wrong azeris are Muslim they will forever if one we'd fight for them we will but I personally and many young Pakistanis don't give **** about legalities concerning native population, legally speaking Kashmir is part of India are you saying we drop our claim and let the indians destroy the native Muslim population of Kashmir?

First of all, I really don’t care who you support. What I reacted to was blatant misinformation, which you carry on with. Kashmir has status of "disputed territory" according to UN and is divided between India and Pakistan, yet there is no such ambiguity over Karabakh. Karabakh is unequivocally considered a part of Azerbaijan according to international law.

Also If Kashmiri Muslims had went on to not only destroy non-Muslim population in Kashmir, but occupy an area twice the size of Kashmir itself while also conducting ethnic cleansing in those areas, perhaps then you could have made a comparison. You repeat the word "atrocities", yet that misses the context.

Exodus of Karabakh Armenians was the result of their own zero-sum ideology.

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By that logic, anywhere Azerbaijanis forms majority should go to Azerbaijan. Including parts of Armenia (no Azerbaijanis left in Armenia tho). That’s not how things work. Why doesn’t Pakistan let Baloch secede?

 

[Qaraca]

View attachment 163651

This map btw is made by an Armenian (Sevan Nishanyan). It shows ethnic make up of late 1800s, but Azerbaijanis continued to populate areas to east and south of lake Sevan (Göyçə in Azerbaijani. Both the name of the lake and area around it) up until the conflict started in late 1980s.

Azerbaijanis protesting for acquiring autonomy in 1988. It says in Cyrillic script:

“Göyçə mahalına muxtarlıq”, autonomy for Göyçə.



Azerbaijani bards from Göyçə.

 

[Qaraca]

I’m sure @falcon34 can explain why these people were driven out of their homeland within Armenia and were never allowed to secede. But let me guess, there is no place for that in "Armenian narrative", is there?

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[Foinikas]

I’m sure @falcon34 can explain why these people were driven out of their homeland within Armenia and were never allowed to secede. But let me guess, there is no place for that in "Armenian narrative", is there?

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You know where I stand on this,but I won't debate it. I'll just leave this song here

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