PAF F-16 | Discussions

[hnn]

can you please clear out what aur f16 fleet looks like now , here you are saying all of our fleet has blk 52 avionics suite , i thought the rest were f16 MLUs . its soo confusing .

What Blain2 mentioned above. These were F-16A/B (Block 15) received up until mid-to-late 2000s. However the MLU didn't include full SLEP so the airframes are older compared to the new F-16C/D Block 52s we received post 2010. So MLU is a reference to older airframes - capability wise they are almost the same as C/D Block 52+ (though not exactly the same).

 

[puttputt]

What Blain2 mentioned above. These were F-16A/B (Block 15) received up until mid-to-late 2000s. However the MLU didn't include full SLEP so the airframes are older compared to the new F-16C/D Block 52s we received post 2010. So MLU is a reference to older airframes - capability wise they are almost the same as C/D Block 52+ (though not exactly the same).

The F-16A/B Block-15s were given FALCON UP/STAR to ensure they reach 8,000 hours. But there's no program available to extend them past that point, so the PAF likely anticipates retiring the A/Bs by 2040. We can likely expect the J-35AE orders to slot in through the 2030s to gradually phase the old F-16A/Bs out by that point.

 

[hnn]

The F-16A/B Block-15s were given FALCON UP/STAR to ensure they reach 8,000 hours. But there's no program available to extend them past that point, so the PAF likely anticipates retiring the A/Bs by 2040. We can likely expect the J-35AE orders to slot in through the 2030s to gradually phase the old F-16A/Bs out by that point.

Yeah that's what I have been mentioning. Even if the A/B get full SLEP it'll only extend another ~ 4-8,000 of flying hours that would mean in any case by mid 2040s we'd have to get new airframes or new aircrafts to replace these. The V + SLEP upto to 2060s is only possible for C/D.

 

[Trailer23]

My friend, you may not have been around. I was and quite a few others who happen to be on this forum. I had newspaper cuttings from the Dawn when F-16s were agreed on and there were opinions a plenty including the usual "ham ghareeb qaum hain" crowd.

My friend..., i've been 'round since the 70's. I may not been old enough OR simple didn't give a sh!t 'bout it in the 80's. By the way, I was referring to the 80's which is why I mentioned USSR.

I'm not sure where the whole 'forum' part came in...

The rest, I am not sure what you are implying there. Just like F-16s were an impossibility for Pakistan in the 70s and F-35s were an impossibility for the Turks, they became or are becoming a possibility. In the world of geo-pol, you cannot write anything off.

Please don't drag the Turks & the F-35 debate. Incase you aren't aware, but Turkey was part of the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter) Programme.

They financed it too just like all number of other Nations. Its just that they did something stupid by going for the S-400 & are now paying the price for it. All the US ever needs is a reason to screw over someone - including a friend.

And pretty much everything for Pakistan was impossible in the 70's (as well). Its just the Afghan War broke out & the US came running to Pakistan to help out against the Soviet Union. Have you forgotten the sh!t they offered Pakistan prior to us settling on the Vipers.

1. A-7 Corsair II

2. F-20 Tigershark

Second, if Pakistan brings its own finances to the table...

I'm sorry..., we're talking about the same nation that goes in and out of the IMF Building every year - like a revolving door.

I get the whole Geo-Political debate - but in my opinion if a Nation like UAE, that not only has deeeeeeeep pockets, but is pretty close to !srael now, gets rejected for the F-35. I just don't see how Pakistan even gets close enough for a photo-op.

However, I believe PAF has decided that it will go with J-35 so this debate on F-35 is simply moot.

Agreed ...

Lets just hope we have money for those, 'cause clearly we haven't been able to cover for the remaining 16 J-10's of the 36 Order.

 

[RocketLaw]

Honestly..., I don't know where you get the idea of brining up F-35's ...

Operating an F-35 is not like a Vespa.

Q. Why would KSA fund our Jets?

Have you seen the price tag on a F-35 (lately)?

Do you know the cost of operating one just for a single shortie?

Trust me, it's just easier to dream. Plus I've heard it's cheaper.

[Batey crore ki - duqaan pakorro ki]

I hear you, bro.

I already know that F-35A (basic version) are extremely expensive.

Again I double checked the price of F-35A, it looks like they’re over $120 million per tag even for allies with Japan.

The operating cost for ONE HOUR of flight is around $42,000 or more, that’s incredibly expensive and high maintenance costs.

I guess it is better to stick with the F-16s (old grandpa verry stroong).

 

[Trailer23]

I guess it is better to stick with the F-16s (old grandpa verry stroong).

I'd pick that grandpa any day. Twice on Sundays.


The only and only reason why the F-16's weren't in the fight, back in May was because of the End-User Agreement.

We can & will use Vipers in Defence.

Not certain why people have written off the F-16's just because we now have - 20 J-10's (that performed well).

India only has ...what... 32 Rafales left in their inventory.

Ol' Grandpa can make chapatti's out of whatever else they got - including the Raptor of the East (Su-30MKi).

 

[rafale]

The engine block isn’t some crazy secret.

Paa did not want to pay for Zulus without fmf. We decided against buying them.

T129s were selected, US denied export permits to a competitor. Literally nothing crazy nothing secret.
If the us was so uptight about exports to pak, why were GTs for Jinnah and Babur not blocked via turkey, and why were turbines for our helicopters not blocked either?

The GTs supply for Jinnah and Babur is a bit different than outrightly allowing offensive weapons, such as AIM120D which the indians will bitch about all day or AH1Z vipers.

Denying GTs for ships that aren't competing with US products wouldnt benefit anyone any bit. Those type of GTs are already installed in power generation fleets in Pakistan as the LM2500/6000 series.......so nothing really sensitive or new.

for T129, the engines were unique.......so they chose not to benefit a competitor of Ah1Z....or just plain old being a sore loser....

 

[rafale]

My friend, you may not have been around. I was and quite a few others who happen to be on this forum. I had newspaper cuttings from the Dawn when F-16s were agreed on and there were opinions a plenty including the usual "ham ghareeb qaum hain" crowd. There was even talk of acquiring E-3C Sentry/E-2C Hawkeye and Abrams tanks in those days. The exact same questions were asked within the PAF and also even in the Army when the induction of Cobras was being looked into. It was a cost undertaking never seen before in the PAF.

When the US and Pakistani interests in GWOT converged and they cleared 36 (not 18 mind you, those are what are finances afforded) blk 52s, we got 18 new and then we also got to upgrade the entire F-16 fleet to blk52 avionics suite and weapons package. Essentially the exact same exercise undertaken by all the NATO Air Forces and even Taiwan et-al. So now you have a 70+ fleet with a current BVR capability which outperforms every Indian platform except the Rafale's Meteor. So let's not minimize the impact of this. Indians were scared shitless pitting their MKIs and everything else in 2019 (and losing 2 of theirs in the process) against this very fleet.

The rest, I am not sure what you are implying there. Just like F-16s were an impossibility for Pakistan in the 70s and F-35s were an impossibility for the Turks, they became or are becoming a possibility. In the world of geo-pol, you cannot write anything off. Second, if Pakistan brings its own finances to the table and Americans decide to open up F-35 for its second tier allies, then it's quite possible for Pakistan to purchase/operate it. However, I believe PAF has decided that it will go with J-35 so this debate on F-35 is simply moot.

Actually 36 were confirmed by congress and another 36 confirmation was in works as well...but the 2005 quake hit...........and yes right at that moment, 72 F-16s Blk52 would have been possible.

 

[Bratva]

AIM-120 C8's are hella expensive and D3 is crazy expensive. 200 rounds of C8 cost around 400-500 Million$ and 400-500 D3 rounds are upwards of Billion dollar.

The V-Upgrade costs for 75 planes are not something that can be covered with CSF funds.

 

[Blain2]

AIM-120 C8's are hella expensive and D3 is crazy expensive. 200 rounds of C8 cost around 400-500 Million$ and 400-500 D3 rounds are upwards of Billion dollar.

The V-Upgrade costs for 75 planes are not something that can be covered with CSF funds.

There is NO CSF any more. Everything will have to be financed by Pakistan itself. Nothing in the current US budget was allocated for Pakistan and CSF was around when the US had a footprint in Afghanistan with Pakistan charging them for the use of our ports and ground/air corridors.

 

[ThoroughPro]

Hopefully this is not true. But radars are not being upgraded.

What's included in "Avionics"

 

[Meengla]

Hard to miss the gloom in this Indian channel. And this video also confirms which some Pakistani analyst said: It was Pakistan who requested this upgrade in 2021 only now the Americans are obliging Pakistan. There is not much Indians can do about it.
Watch and enjoy! It is a good discussion though.

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[Ali_Baba]

Hard to miss the gloom in this Indian channel. And this video also confirms which some Pakistani analyst said: It was Pakistan who requested this upgrade in 2021 only now the Americans are obliging Pakistan. There is not much Indians can do about it.
Watch and enjoy! It is a good discussion though.

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4 years to approve a simple maintenance and upgrade contract, but people still think new builds are possible….

 

[Fatman17]

This is a F-16 thread. Stick to it or stick out

 

[东风夜放花千树]

Not sure why would China reject such proposal. I am hearing more about the Monroe Doctrine and the Spheres of Influence. A G-2 would give China dominance in the Pacific. We don't even hear much about the South China Sea islands. I tend to think Trump is taking America to the pre World War II era. The antagonism against China is greatly reduced and one can see that in NY Times pages which is complaining about how Trump is giving much to China.
I think the G-2 and the Spheres of Influence discussion are extremely important and should be discussed in a separate thread.


Yes, Trump likes strength and machoism and on that Pakistan showed to him and the world that Pakistan is capable of standing up to a power several times stronger than Pakistan on May 2025. BUT... very soon after assuming the office in January 2025, Trump was already giving signs of warming up to Pakistan when he went out of his way to thank Pakistan in a major forum for nabbing the terrorist who killed the US Marines at the Kabul Airport in August 2021. Plus, IIRC, topmost US Generals were lavishing praise on Pakistan in front of Congressional leaders and that was before the May 2025 Pak-India conflict.

Because this proposal does not align with China’s diplomatic strategy, China does not practice power politics; whether it is war or trade war, China is the passive countering side. This is completely different from the U.S. foreign policy. The previous G2 was the United States and the Soviet Union, and these two countries made the international situation tense. Moreover, this proposal was put forward by Trump with the aim of creating disputes between China and Russia. Recently, Trump proposed a G5: China, the United States, Russia, India, and Japan. Trump has no credibility, and his words are irresponsible, so China will not respond to such proposals.

Compared to the last century, we are now more confident in resisting aggression and more capable of safeguarding national interests. China is currently a developing country, not yet a superpower, so the country still needs development. The U.S. proposing a G2 acknowledges China’s status. If China were a great power like the U.S., what right would the U.S. have to ask China to join organizations established by the U.S.?

Trump once praised Pakistan, and he has praised many countries and individuals. In China, we have a saying: “Listen to what someone says, watch what they do; what others say can just be heard, don’t take it too seriously. Only actions prove a person’s attitude.”

Trump has no credibility, and his words are irresponsible. This is well demonstrated by Trump himself. On February 13, Trump met Modi, and both sides reached a cooperation agreement, but from the start of Trump’s term until the May War, Trump and Pakistan did not reach any cooperation, and U.S. sanctions against Pakistan were not lifted either. The strategic value of India to the U.S. is higher than Pakistan’s; U.S. strategy has always been to support India and Japan against China. If the U.S. were to support Pakistan, India, and Japan simultaneously against China, and India asked the U.S. to occupy Pakistani territory as a condition for deploying troops to attack China, do you think Trump would agree? The U.S. has already betrayed Pakistan once, which was also the beginning of friendship between China and Pakistan.

On May 7, after Pakistan defeated India, Trump expressed his intention to intervene as a mediator. On June 18, Trump invited Munir to lunch. On June 21, Pakistan nominated Trump for the Pursuit of Peace Award. On July 30, Trump announced assistance in developing Pakistan’s oil reserves. On August 12, Pakistan and the U.S. held counter-terrorism talks. On September 8, Pakistan and the U.S. signed the Energy Security Partnership Agreement. On December 11, the U.S. sold Pakistan F-16 parts and upgrade services. Before the May War, cooperation between Pakistan and the U.S. was not this extensive.

Thus, I speculate that the victory in the May War brought benefits to Pakistan. However, this is still a means for the U.S. to control India. Previously, the U.S. saw India as a partner to counter China; now it wants India to act as its proxy, becoming the Ukraine of Asia. Japan lacks strategic depth and cannot sustain a long-term war; India is the best choice.