Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

Wouldn’t that be true with Brahmos, Scalp and Rampage too? What if these were fired in hundreds and not 10s?

Yes - in that case, mutually assured destruction on conventional scale would continue - India still had the advantage of geography though.

But again, when you have lost the advantage and freedom to use your air power unlike the other side - you can only launch a handful of weapons from air which are more difficult to intercept - effectively reducing the overall means to deliver the deadly blows.

you'll again disagree but only few of those "10s" came from air and from very stand off ranges. Only that saved IAF the embarrassment of any further aircraft losses.
I would grant the tactics part on day one. Not after that.

Wouldn’t agree on that for the reasons above.
 
But again, when you have lost the advantage and freedom to use your air power unlike the other side - you can only launch a handful of weapons from air which are more difficult to intercept - effectively reducing the overall means to deliver the deadly blows.
India had enough to launch from ground as well as the air. Even if means by air were limited, they weren’t eliminated all together.

The precision and reach of those can’t be brushed under the carpet. And that could have been multiplied many folds without any difficulty except the possibility of an escalation.

India used tactics required to deliver weapons on 10th. That is what matters in the end. Not the means. I find most Pak posters fixated on PAF vs IAF. I am fixated on the outcome.

A nimble fighter would find best course of action to deliver a result after initial setback. So the pivot adopted by Indian commanders was praiseworthy. Thats why the tactics part can be granted on 7th. Not after that.

I see Pak commanders fail in that regard. They could have done better if the IAF was really on the ground as claimed.
 
India used tactics required to deliver weapons on 10th. That is what matters in the end. Not the means. I find most Pak posters fixated on PAF vs IAF. I am fixated on the outcome.

Yes, agreed. The outcome matters and not the means. However, the means do affect the outcomes in a sustained conflict. India has thousands of Brahmos but i would need similar numbers on TELs as well to "compensate" for the air advantage that i had lost.

Why am i being forced to compensate? I had plenty of resources at my disposal. I had one of the best and most expensive aircrafts in my fleet. I had one of the best air defence systems in the world.

So the questions rightly go to the air marshals, no matter what.
A nimble fighter would find best course of action to deliver a result after initial setback. So the pivot adopted by Indian commanders was praiseworthy. Thats why the tactics part can be granted on 7th. Not after that.

I don't disagree on this - the overall strategy was much better than on 7th. Even though, on 7th too, 7 out of 9 targets were hit by Indian Army and only 2 by the IAF. But what was the need to put such large armada of 70+ aircrafts in air and keeping them in air for more than an hour. Literally, no sense at all.

Perhaps, IAF had prepared a master plan of baiting the PAF to scramble their poor chinese maal and get their aircrafts shot down - a satisfying revenge for 2019 fiasco - adding salt to the wound of having their airspace violated and targets struck on ground.
 
Do you think Indians are getting over-excited over US Ops in Venezuela and Iran and need to be warned off again ?
India tried to imitate US and Israel in the past...thinking it can strike Pakistan at will..and Pakistan will have to take it.
..now with US capturing Venezuela's president...

...I hope India captures the likes of Sharifs, Zardari(Bhuttos), Diesel, and the rest of the corrupt lot playing musical chairs with leadership positions...
...in that case..Pak should let India have that win.
 
However, the means do affect the outcomes in a sustained conflict.
There was no requirement to put that armada of fighters by Indian commanders. What were they thinking is beyond me. They got a nasty surprise, didn’t they?

The PL15 threat would matter more in a skirmish but not so much in a full fledged conflict. Because the number of J10s is very limited and 20 J10s can do only this much. Indian commanders can do that math, I guess.

Indian forces displayed enough capability to put few critical PAF bases out of action for adequate duration that could have vastly reduced PL15 threat. Craters on Sargodha runway was just a display of intent. Few critical bases disabled based on solid intelligence, for 8-10 hours could have created a window for whatever IAF would have intended to do.

So, “what if” scenario didn’t have silver lining for Pakistan only. It had few positives for my side too.

10th May showed that Indian commanders were ready to make changes as required to deliver what was needed and Pakistan didn’t see it coming. That element of surprise could have continued later too.

And I grant that to your side too. But that didn’t happen, hence is a moot point.

If anything, salt to the wound was added by India too, in striking targets with impunity even after losing the air engagement on the 7th. I am wondering why no one is asking Pak commanders if they have anything great to show after stellar performance on 7th.
 
There was no requirement to put that armada of fighters by Indian commanders. What were they thinking is beyond me. They got a nasty surprise, didn’t they?

The PL15 threat would matter more in a skirmish but not so much in a full fledged conflict. Because the number of J10s is very limited and 20 J10s can do only this much. Indian commanders can do that math, I guess.

Indian forces displayed enough capability to put few critical PAF bases out of action for adequate duration that could have vastly reduced PL15 threat. Craters on Sargodha runway was just a display of intent. Few critical bases disabled based on solid intelligence, for 8-10 hours could have created a window for whatever IAF would have intended to do.

So, “what if” scenario didn’t have silver lining for Pakistan only. It had few positives for my side too.

10th May showed that Indian commanders were ready to make changes as required to deliver what was needed and Pakistan didn’t see it coming. That element of surprise could have continued later too.

And I grant that to your side too. But that didn’t happen, hence is a moot point.

If anything, salt to the wound was added by India too, in striking targets with impunity even after losing the air engagement on the 7th. I am wondering why no one is asking Pak commanders if they have anything great to show after stellar performance on 7th.

The J10s were enough to counter the Rafale + meteor threat. The rest of fleet could be handled by JF 17 and F-16s. They still had the longer and better sticks in the shape of AMRAAMs and PL-15s.

Anyway Let's stop it mate - things getting back to same old repetitive arguments 😁

I am surprised if indian people are happy with performance of IAF given the fact that how much money was spent on procuring one of the best systems by them. The output wasn't proportionate to that - which again, if we get back to original point, the IAF couldn't exploit the Rafale like it should have been and with the capabilities this aircraft has to offer - and one being an indian should put up some constructive criticism for that.
 
There was no requirement to put that armada of fighters by Indian commanders. What were they thinking is beyond me. They got a nasty surprise, didn’t they?

The PL15 threat would matter more in a skirmish but not so much in a full fledged conflict. Because the number of J10s is very limited and 20 J10s can do only this much. Indian commanders can do that math, I guess.

Indian forces displayed enough capability to put few critical PAF bases out of action for adequate duration that could have vastly reduced PL15 threat. Craters on Sargodha runway was just a display of intent. Few critical bases disabled based on solid intelligence, for 8-10 hours could have created a window for whatever IAF would have intended to do.

So, “what if” scenario didn’t have silver lining for Pakistan only. It had few positives for my side too.

10th May showed that Indian commanders were ready to make changes as required to deliver what was needed and Pakistan didn’t see it coming. That element of surprise could have continued later too.

And I grant that to your side too. But that didn’t happen, hence is a moot point.

If anything, salt to the wound was added by India too, in striking targets with impunity even after losing the air engagement on the 7th. I am wondering why no one is asking Pak commanders if they have anything great to show after stellar performance on 7th.
Dude it reeks of cope.
Anyways Barnala was bombed 2 S400s were bombed, not to mention the rampage of F1s and SH15 on Indian positions, not a single base was disabled those dumb fk indian commanders literally bombed the end of the runway also other runways were available too for take off from Sargodha, the only hit I would say it had impact was bholari, we lost precious lives there other than that either they were spoofed or shot down.
What you think if it had continued we wouldn't have brought out Raads, Baburs and shaheens.
It's been over 7 months move on rather finding wins at the end of conflict IAF stood as a rocket force that was lobbing missiles from 200-300 km away and effectively lost west part of Indian airspace
 
The J10s were enough to counter the Rafale + meteor threat. The rest of fleet could be handled by JF 17 and F-16s. They still had the longer and better sticks in the shape of AMRAAMs and PL-15s.
It falls in “could have” scenario. Hence, I wouldn’t hazard a guess here.
I do grant that IAF commanders needed to do better.

I wonder, why couldn’t they innovate the way they were able to do on 10th. Taking an adversary lightly was a stupid thing and first lesson of what not to do and also most quoted quote.

As an Indian, I do hope that they would not take an adversary lightly and that Chinese maal is as good as any other.

I am ready to criticise my commanders but haven’t seen any such thing from across. It appears success all the way and I disagree to that narrative.

But, you are right, that we are going back in a circle.

Let’s keep it for another day and time. Chao.
 
Dude it reeks of cope.
Anyways Barnala was bombed 2 S400s were bombed, not to mention the rampage of F1s and SH15 on Indian positions, not a single base was disabled those dumb fk indian commanders literally bombed the end of the runway also other runways were available too for take off from Sargodha, the only hit I would say it had impact was bholari, we lost precious lives there other than that either they were spoofed or shot down.
What you think if it had continued we wouldn't have brought out Raads, Baburs and shaheens.
It's been over 7 months move on rather finding wins at the end of conflict IAF stood as a rocket force that was lobbing missiles from 200-300 km away and effectively lost west part of Indian airspace
You are way above my league and I have no counter against your arguments. I accept defeat with folded hands.

Mujhe muaf kar do. 🙏🏼
 
It falls in “could have” scenario. Hence, I wouldn’t hazard a guess here.
I do grant that IAF commanders needed to do better.

2019 demo certainly doesn't make it "could have" scenerio. Su30s being the best on IAF inventory, couldn't even launch a missile instead were being praised for dodging the AMRAAMs. 😁

Anyway - leave it.
 
Hello guys,

Rafale Deal of 114 should be taken with pinch of salt. Problem is that just like that MMRCA program of 128 jets that led to induction of only 36 Rafales. This time 114 jets with new tranche / variant, more improved spectra and meteors in large quantity is included in deal. the payment is not full payment, so the deal can go south anytime.

The forum members saying that "PAF needs to ramp up" is an insult to Pakistan Air Force reputation, even after repeatedly saying that for years since early 2010's I have seen this on forums that PAF needs to do this and that. However, truth is that PAF did more then even our daydreaming demands / wish list. No one anticipated PAF will perform that good. We only ought it to survive Su30 and Rafale rampage.

PAF doctrine is to train the pilots in against the simulated worst conditions. Pretty sure PAF has been training to even counter F35 as there was chance Indians will get it too. You can deny the quality of Army or Navy but not PAF. Good thing is Air force is the first line of defense not army or navy.

PAF knows what it is doing. It knows after success of may conflict if it derails into over celebration and egoistically think that Indians will lay low now is wrong. India has money and it will buy the shortcomings or indigenous-ly deal with it. Indians are good in science and have R&D better than us.

Basically my thinking is that India is being scammed by Russia and France in defense deals, giving them assurance that the weapons will make Indians deal with even western counterparts. But the tech was export quality. Soviets used to do this and now Russia too. Dont you guys remember chest thumping Su30 Raptor of east etc the bars radar and PESA tech. On paper the tech was sophisticated but it wasn't in 19 or 25 conflict.

Truth is there operational readiness is weak in case of conflict. between quarter towards the half of indian airforce seems like they are not even mission capable let alone Full-mission-capable.

However, the performance was too weak even weaker then how Indians fared in 71 and 65 war. K/D ratio is appalling for Indians in 19 and 25.

Yes, same could happen to Pakistan anytime. That is why Pakistan has been secretive about further j10 deals and j31.​
Thanks to the heavens above us......you went from HELLO SIR to HELLO GUYS.............
 
I want to clarify at the outset that this is a discussion about negotiation, signaling, and deterrence as analogies, not a justification of conflict or an attempt to gloat. My own approach, whether in personal or political contexts, is to avoid confrontation wherever possible.

Two observations might help illustrate how calculated restraint actually works in practice.

  1. During a local turf or political dispute, someone I know managed to de-escalate tension by calling his counterpart directly and saying, in essence: “I am not asking you to forget what happened or to reconcile, but this should not extend beyond this incident. If it does, it will become harder for both of us to contain.” That was not a threat. It was a boundary. It conveyed that continued escalation would hurt both sides, so mutual restraint was the logical choice.

  2. In another situation, when someone from an influential family acted menacingly, the response they received was a clear statement of deterrence. They were reminded that, if pushed beyond a point, consequences could expand uncontrollably. The intent was not posturing or aggression, but to force a moment of calculation about costs and consequences.
In both examples, the same logic applies to international relations. Real restraint is not weakness; it is calculation. Those who accuse one side, in this case Pakistan, of showing restraint as if it were mere timidity often miss how deterrence works. Sometimes purposeful non-escalation is a signal of both capability and control. @hnn
I think this is very well explained......and also that PAF or anyone not doing any more pressers or BDAs outakes because it was all part of de-escalation and giving Indians a chill moment to think and back down from even more stupidity.

And this is exactly what other nations and Western capitals have picked up.....Pakistan's ability to act mature, controlled and decisive in an otherwise rapidly escalating and spiraling crisis of serious magnitude which really wasn't to be blamed on Pakistan anyway.
 
Got spanked by J10s but still mentally scarred by F-sola for some reason 😁
which is why i always say, whenever it is time for PAF to retire the oldest F-16s (ADF versions), they should really make one into an unmanned jet....and fly it straight into India so bhindians can finally shoot one down and declare a national holiday for celebrations.
 
  • Haha
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