France confirms India’s interest in Rafale F5, potential first export customer

[Atheist]

Big difference between build and assemble.

We all can buy pc parts and assemble a pc but none of us can make the parts and chips etc and build it.

What about jf17 or anything Pakistan claim they build it?

 

[Foinikas]

Great deal

For France

They are milking the Indians,

The indians are completely cornered and option less and France has taken the opportunity to milk the Indian cow


The indians will be paying through their nose for decades

I'm getting in fights online with my compatriots on defence sites when they call for purchases of Indian equipment or cooperation on defence matters and technology. One was asking me the other day "well then if the Indians lost Rafale why are they buying more?" I explained to him the reasons,I had him constantly disagree with me. He called me a "pak(i)" supporter,I shouldn't believe what I read on pak forums,totally clueless etc.

 

[hussain0216]

I'm getting in fights online with my compatriots on defence sites when they call for purchases of Indian equipment or cooperation on defence matters and technology. One was asking me the other day "well then if the Indians lost Rafale why are they buying more?" I explained to him the reasons,I had him constantly disagree with me. He called me a "pak(i)" supporter,I shouldn't believe what I read on pak forums,totally clueless etc.

The Rafael is actually a fine plane, on par with Euro fighter etc

Even against 5th gen fighters these planes can hold their own as long as you use good tactics

The Indians lost not because of the Rafael, but because they are ego driven clowns and had very poor tactics that left them with egg on their face

Since then they have embraced the delusions and that can't be helped



Once again the Rafael is a fine plane, but the Indians could have had this deal at least 2 decades ago at a much reduced price

They messed up multiple times and left themselves, with no alternatives except to go down the Rafael route


France isn't stupid, for what the Indians want the French have made them pay exhortation rates
And they understand they won't just hand over technology to India so France can be replaced

This is a multi decade, project that will fund french defence and the Indian tax payer will pay for it



In the end India will get the plane and support for a engines and AMCA but it would do so at great great costs and in a frankly stupid way

 

[Yasser76]

The Rafael is actually a fine plane, on par with Euro fighter etc

Even against 5th gen fighters these planes can hold their own as long as you use good tactics

The Indians lost not because of the Rafael, but because they are ego driven clowns and had very poor tactics that left them with egg on their face

Since then they have embraced the delusions and that can't be helped



Once again the Rafael is a fine plane, but the Indians could have had this deal at least 2 decades ago at a much reduced price

They messed up multiple times and left themselves, with no alternatives except to go down the Rafael route


France isn't stupid, for what the Indians want the French have made them pay exhortation rates
And they understand they won't just hand over technology to India so France can be replaced

This is a multi decade, project that will fund french defence and the Indian tax payer will pay for it



In the end India will get the plane and support for a engines and AMCA but it would do so at great great costs and in a frankly stupid way

Whats more, no matter how many Rafales they buy, have they looked into the root cause for their losses ad addressed these issues?

1) The lack of decent AEW
2) No datalinks or datalinks we easily hacked
3) PAF able to listen in and even jam their tranmissions
4) EW failures

If the above are not addressed they are simply buying more planes for us to shoot down....

At these prices, 1 Rafale = 3 J-10Cs...

 

[Foinikas]

The Rafael is actually a fine plane, on par with Euro fighter etc

Even against 5th gen fighters these planes can hold their own as long as you use good tactics

The Indians lost not because of the Rafael, but because they are ego driven clowns and had very poor tactics that left them with egg on their face

Since then they have embraced the delusions and that can't be helped



Once again the Rafael is a fine plane, but the Indians could have had this deal at least 2 decades ago at a much reduced price

They messed up multiple times and left themselves, with no alternatives except to go down the Rafael route


France isn't stupid, for what the Indians want the French have made them pay exhortation rates
And they understand they won't just hand over technology to India so France can be replaced

This is a multi decade, project that will fund french defence and the Indian tax payer will pay for it



In the end India will get the plane and support for a engines and AMCA but it would do so at great great costs and in a frankly stupid way

I agree,why would the French refuse them when they pay even more money for it. Besides,the French are already moving to Rafale F4 and F5,let the Indians pay for the research with these sales

 

[hussain0216]

I agree,why would the French refuse them when they pay even more money for it. Besides,the French are already moving to Rafale F4 and F5,let the Indians pay for the research with these sales

Whatever the french 6th gen product is, India is funding it

And when the time comes and India needs support or seeks to purchase a 6th gen platform, France will again negotiate a new price and unless India by then has a alternative, it will again be trapped

 

[harpy1]

This is strategic deal
Fighters,
Helicopters
They want to sell more scorpenes
But that deal is being win by Germany now ...
His right about this creates lots of jobs and makes the Indian air force stronger more stream lined
It's replacing four types on its own
Mirage 2000
Jaguar
Mig29smt
Mig29k navy

It was the most sensible choice
Su57 was the other big contender but it's another new combat type not battle proven and too much delays on russian weapons due to Ukraine war
That's before we even consider USA sanctions threat
Rafale will come quicker

If the second batch of marine rafales are also ordered Indiw could have over 200 Rafales in decade or so ...air force and navy

And imo almost certain on route the Frances 6th generation fighter in future

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

There is too much riding on prestige but importantly they still need a low end point defense system to sit in their hundreds of Mig-21 hangars along with actually proving out an end to end local support ecosystem unlike their CKD Su-30s which still rely on Russia for many critical parts.

The engine so far is the critical liability - but even with that gone they need another 4-5 years to get full scaled maturity across all local manufacturing.

I really am not sure what the situation is with getting the M-88-4E into the Tejas Mk2 but that would solve massive headaches with the Rafale build in country. Probably if the Dassault reliance - Dassault Tata deal go through they operate with better accountability than HAL or other PSUs. Moreover, Dassault will push for actual performance since they will have their own reputation involved here especially since May 2025.

The C-295 program is currently hitting milestones ahead of schedule, proving private sector viability. Rafale offsets are already functioning with Tata producing tail cones/fuselages efficiently for global supply chains.

Compare to this that Su-30MKI took decades to reach "raw material" manufacturing phases, and even then, availability struggles around 45-55% due to reliance on Russia and slow HAL internal processes.

The biggest advantage this deal brings however is NOT that the Rafale is a potent fighter but that its being pushed on the private sector. There is a severe shortage of "job-ready" manufacturing talent in India and less of these not of the desi "Let it be" mentality. Private JVs solve this by sending staff to France for training (cultural reprogamming), whereas PSUs rely on the same "all izz well".

very deep post!

although, for Pak., this could mean danger, not in short term but long term as well!

 

[Yasser76]

There is too much riding on prestige but importantly they still need a low end point defense system to sit in their hundreds of Mig-21 hangars along with actually proving out an end to end local support ecosystem unlike their CKD Su-30s which still rely on Russia for many critical parts.

The engine so far is the critical liability - but even with that gone they need another 4-5 years to get full scaled maturity across all local manufacturing.

I really am not sure what the situation is with getting the M-88-4E into the Tejas Mk2 but that would solve massive headaches with the Rafale build in country. Probably if the Dassault reliance - Dassault Tata deal go through they operate with better accountability than HAL or other PSUs. Moreover, Dassault will push for actual performance since they will have their own reputation involved here especially since May 2025.

The C-295 program is currently hitting milestones ahead of schedule, proving private sector viability. Rafale offsets are already functioning with Tata producing tail cones/fuselages efficiently for global supply chains.

Compare to this that Su-30MKI took decades to reach "raw material" manufacturing phases, and even then, availability struggles around 45-55% due to reliance on Russia and slow HAL internal processes.

The biggest advantage this deal brings however is NOT that the Rafale is a potent fighter but that its being pushed on the private sector. There is a severe shortage of "job-ready" manufacturing talent in India and less of these not of the desi "Let it be" mentality. Private JVs solve this by sending staff to France for training (cultural reprogamming), whereas PSUs rely on the same "all izz well".

Agreed, 150 Rafales and 300 Tejas would have made a solid core to build around.

Thankfully Tejas bit is screwed.

Throwing everything in with the French and private sector maybe the prudent move here, but one does thing this is around 2 decades too late. Essentially you may well have India rolling out 4th Gen fighters still in 2035 as many air forces will be entirely 5th gen and one can expect at least two PAF 5th gen Sqds and PLAAF possibly many 6th gen fighters.

Additionally France has always struggled to field a "system of systems" if you like.
Regarding all the assets PAF used or will be seeking from China (AEW, EW, SAMs, Sats etc) French need to import many of these themselves or in the cases of high altitude SAMs, simply do not have any.

As we saw in May 7th, Rafales failed to integrate into IAF and we isolated and jammed them. Unless these issues and of course proper combat training, are resolved, these new planes face the danger of becoming expensive practice targets

 

[LC150]

These are not mutually exclusive. Assembly is just one of the final steps of the manufacturing process. It is not like Dassault is presently manufacturing every single component that goes into the Rafale.

As for the India order, there would be some minimum localisation threshold that would be specified when the contract is signed. So, some components would have to be manufactured locally in India. Others would be imported and then the planes would be put together and tested in India before handing them over to the IAF.

Obviously, this is not sufficient for India to build a knock-off Rafale on their own, but it will force some technology and processes to be absorbed by the defence production ecosystem in India.

you have been assembling planes for decades now.. and yet cannot manufacture any key componet

indian manufacturing is sub par.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Whats more, no matter how many Rafales they buy, have they looked into the root cause for their losses ad addressed these issues?

1) The lack of decent AEW

I do wonder if they will go for Global Eye since France has purchased the GlobalEye which they "will" integrate with the Rafale, and that integration work India can also get from the French. The other is the E7 Wedgetail which is on a similar platform to the P8i, making integration possible via Link-16 and easy to support maintain.

I do think (with no evidence so far) that IAF will get a new AEW&C off the shelf soon. Watch this space. The Indians have opened up their cheque books and this is the remaining piece of the puzzle for them to address from Sindoor.

Do note, the Rafale F4 variant has a lot of the network capabilities that PAF has built up with its multi-domain framework.

2) No datalinks or datalinks we easily hacked

3) PAF able to listen in and even jam their tranmissions

PAF jammed their encrypted transmissions/voice channels which then forced the pilots to speak in the "clear"(unencrypted channels) which PAF could listen in on. I don't think PAF cracked the comms(happy to be proven wrong of course!)

 

[Ali_Baba]

At these prices, 1 Rafale = 3 J-10Cs...

The J-35AE will help neutralise a lot of the work that the Rafales ( + new AEW&C) combo will bring to the table, esp if China provides the PL-17 ( if it can be carrier internally!).

All the procurements the IAF is doing, will help the IAF "match" the PAF of today, but not tomorrow when the J-35AE comes on line.

 

[Ali_Baba]

btw - The French will tightly integrate the Globaleye with the Rafale since Globaleye will allow for custom datalinks to be installed.

I do think PAF should get 1-2 units of Globaleye to "posion" the well for India to think about buying the Globaleye since "Pakistan already operates it and knows its secrets" and instead "force" the Indians onto the W7 Wedgetail where the integration can "only" be done at a Link-16 level and not custom.

Only, if PAF had some "money" to make that strategic "play" ..

 

[Yasser76]

I do wonder if they will go for Global Eye since France has purchased the GlobalEye which they "will" integrate with the Rafale, and that integration work India can also get from the French. The other is the E7 Wedgetail which is on a similar platform to the P8i, making integration possible via Link-16 and easy to support maintain.

I do think (with no evidence so far) that IAF will get a new AEW&C off the shelf soon. Watch this space. The Indians have opened up their cheque books and this is the remaining piece of the puzzle for them to address from Sindoor.

Do note, the Rafale F4 variant has a lot of the network capabilities that PAF has built up with its multi-domain framework.



PAF jammed their encrypted transmissions/voice channels which then forced the pilots to speak in the "clear"(unencrypted channels) which PAF could listen in on. I don't think PAF cracked the comms(happy to be proven wrong of course!)

Yeah, not sure what PAF did to them EW/Crypto wise, for sure we may have had a lot if help from the Chinese, if we did crack the comms that would be unheard of, probably another reason Dassault and Trappier were panicking and annoyed of no info from IAF after the shoot downs.

F4 is good for sure, but what assets will it communicate with, India seems to be massively behind in drones and AEW. For sure it wont exchange data with Russian kit.

IAF's AEW plans really are all over the place. First it was for 2 more Phalcons, that fell through, then more NETAs, unsure where that deal is at, and then a A330 based AWAC that only on a drawing board.

Going for Global eye or E7 makes sense but again the issue is these will only be able to "talk" to the Rafales

Longer term, in terms of ECCM, EW, detection range I think China has already surpassed US and Europe in AEW tech.

 

[Yasser76]

btw - The French will tightly integrate the Globaleye with the Rafale since Globaleye will allow for custom datalinks to be installed.

I do think PAF should get 1-2 units of Globaleye to "posion" the well for India to think about buying the Globaleye since "Pakistan already operates it and knows its secrets" and instead "force" the Indians onto the W7 Wedgetail where the integration can "only" be done at a Link-16 level and not custom.

Only, if PAF had some "money" to make that strategic "play" ..

My guess is Erieye is the last western AEW we will operate.