Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

Think not purely from LO but overall environment.

Like in a large room , if you put 10 people and its total silence and ask them to listen for a pindrop - chances are a few will hear it.

On the other hand, same room - but filled with people making noise - talking - music in the background - those ten people will struggle to hear the pindrop.

That’s how you utilize your VLO
Agreed with your points, but as per your analysis how much would the effective range of S-400 be reduced if the target was a J-35 size VLO aircraft? Like would it be down to 50-100km at best?

The reason I am asking this is because effectively you can make their AD useless. But then again we don't really know how much J-35 is actually stealthy say versus F-35/F-22 types.
 
LORA is extremely potent and effective ALBM. September 2025 strike on Hamas Villa was by LORA. Video below of the strike.



You can see how accurate the strike was. There is a fuel station, wall attached, adjacent to compound There is a school nearby to this compound. Heck Missile didn't even cause damage to nearby villas or buildings. Prime minister of Qatar is on record, in a press conference said Our radars didn't know/saw it was coming.

If and when Indians get this ALBM, they gonna use it for decapitation strikes and we don't have an AD or solution to stop this missile.
That's my fear.

Ther is zero chance that IAF will go against PAF in air to air mode. Even with Rafale F4s, they can't, because with the PL15 PAF has the longest teeth in south asia by far.

However, Israelis have mastered launching ALBMs.....like LORA and Blue Sparrow and this is what Indians will go for, not merely SCALP or HAMMER type attacks.

I think when that news/rumors of J-35/HQ19 combo broke out, it made sense. Even though J-35 and KJ500 is a believable eco system to procure, HQ19 is different and dedicated for BM defense, yet it mentioned alongside J-35 and KJ500.

My guess is that Pakistan will go for that with whatever funds it can muster in the time being.
 
1. Can't do a wargame without data. How much will India improve? How much will our defenses improve? Please give some datums.

2. We can afford multiple hits on our bases and still keep the operations up. It is the optics and roasting regarding how PAF failed to defend its bases that is more troublesome. There are contingencies practiced on every base annually where you have to show that you can operate without runway or POL or other such hits.

3. Again, good of India that they went for cease fire after hitting the bases but not destroying any aircraft to equalize the score of 7th.

4. "Really tested the limit of our ADS" again, a generic statement. Did we intercept the drones with EW? Are we not filling up the gaps identified with better kinetic and non-kinetic capabilities? Has India started producing 10,000 drones annually as envisaged by some?

5. " Airpower is offensive in nature" doesn't mean the punch you are referring too. Let me recommend you 2 books that will clarify this statement about the employment of Airpower. The War in the Air, 1914-1994 by Alan Stepheminns and Airpower in 3 Wars by USAF Gen. Momyer.

6. I would love to do an Oxford style academic debate based on many other such books. But this forum has its limitations and I can only conclude by saying that expensive cruise missiles in Indo-Pak scenario can only achieve so much. You need the concentration of force that is not possible with 4 millions dollar Brahmos or small LMs. You will have to use bombs in numbers. The stand-off range of glide bombs is much lesser than missiles. Except great powers, no country can afford to rely solely on hitting the adversary by keeping its aircraft 200 km away throughout the conflict.
1. I referred to factor in assumed modernization of BOTH sides for scenario building and war gaming instead of focusing on one side only. Now, if you want to quantify this to polish the research there are many data sets available to help like SIPRI database. It can help us quantify the modernization of Both air forces in terms of exact numbers and we can build scenarios based on these new (futurisitc) inventories of main combat systems (fighters, SAMS, space base sensors etc.)
2. Multiple hits is a generic term here. How much qualify as "multiple"? 10,20,50?? Whatever the number is, it is certainly not indefinite. And in order to render airbase unoperational one doesn't need to completely destroy each HAS, bunker, tower in it. Constant hitting Runways and taxiway joints will be actual challeng. Optics is part of informaiton operations no one can take it out of the conflict. Only way of winning it is to put enemy airbases more under operatioanl stress by disabling their runways, communication nodes, IADS assets like SAMs. Optics will favor which party hits opponent more time. (Satellite imagery will emerge eventually).
3. That's the whole point, after hitting our bases they didn't need to shotdown 7 of our fighters. They were able to go off ramp declaring "all objectives complete" when both sides accepted ceasefire. Lolz, funny thing.. India offered this off ramp to Pakistan right after losing 8 of their fighters when no Pakistani base was hit. But obviously, Pakistan was in no position to accept it at that time without giving a response.

4. Again, the same argument. We are building defenses, YES we are but they are building offenses as well.
5. Both topics i.e. "Air power is offensive" and "PAF needs punch" are related not the same. I don't know what gave you an impression that I am saying they are the same. One is artchitecture and other is application. Books you referred are two basic academic text to understand how airpower application can be/must be employed in OFFENSIVE manner to achieve strategic results. No ways books contraditcs what I have been saying. For example, core argument in both books is that offense will always prevails no matter how resilient air defense is. In fact, Momyer in his work warned against relying on technological superiority, networking, and resilience of air defense systems and he went on to concluding that
“If you are not using airpower aggressively to destroy the enemy system, you are misusing it.”
Now what I am saying (lack of punch) is not having aqequade offensive strength and relying on air defense both in the air and from ground and then going for counter-offensive. This thinking demands building both offensive and defensive capabilities at SCALE. It demands an infrastructure that can first absorb opening salvo from enemy and then launching counter offensive larger than what enemy would mount on you. It is obvious that even in presence of such infrastruture party without initiative will be playing a catching game on escalation ladder. BTW, both books you refer don't take into account prevailing asymmetric situation between IAF/PAF. The authors have written from USAF prespective where it always enjoys numerical and technological superiority. My argument is simple. PAF will be better not adopting this expensive defensive architecture and have some capabilities in the sleeve that will enable it to take the war to enemy right from the onset of a future conflict. Pakistan can achieve this with vertical force integration by combining firepower from army, navy and PAF.

6. How about we both give each other a topic of academic research and exchange our papers. This will also help in your IR degree and then we can send both papers for peer review. Oxford style debate is obviously not possible here due to techincial limitations of forum. Through this research we can explain our argument about developing offensive capabilities in Indo-Pakistan air balance of power in context of ongoing conflicts (Ukraine, Iran etc.) Offer is here, Any taker?

Apologies for long post.
 
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1. I referred to factor in assumed modernization of BOTH sides for scenario building and war gaming instead of focusing on one side only. Now, if you want to quantify this to polish the research there are many data sets available to help like SIPRI database. It can help us quantify the modernization of Both air forces in terms of exact numbers and we can build scenarios based on these new (futurisitc) inventories of main combat systems (fighters, SAMS, space base sensors etc.)
2. Multiple hits is a generic term here. How much qualify as "multiple"? 10,20,50?? Whatever the number is, it is certainly not indefinite. And in order to render airbase unoperational one doesn't need to completely destroy each HAS, bunker, tower in it. Constant hitting Runways and taxiway joints will be actual challeng. Optics is part of informaiton operations no one can take it out of the conflict. Only way of winning it is to put enemy airbases more under operatioanl stress by disabling their runways, communication nodes, IADS assets like SAMs. Optics will favor which party hits opponent more time. (Satellite imagery will emerge eventually).
3. That's the whole point, after hitting our bases they didn't need to shotdown 7 of our fighters. They were able to go off ramp declaring "all objectives complete" when both sides accepted ceasefire. Lolz, funny thing.. India offered this off ramp to Pakistan right after losing 8 of their fighters when no Pakistani base was hit. But obviously, Pakistan was in no position to accept it at that time without giving a response.

4. Again, the same argument. We are building defenses, YES we are but they are building offenses as well.
5. Both topics i.e. "Air power is offensive" and "PAF needs punch" are related not the same. I don't know what gave you an impression that I am saying they are the same. One is artchitecture and other is application. Books you referred are two basic academic text to understand how airpower application can be/must be employed in OFFENSIVE manner to achieve strategic results. No ways books contraditcs what I have been saying. For example, core argument in both books is that offense will always prevails no matter how resilient air defense is. In fact, Momyer in his work warned against relying on technological superiority, networking, and resilience of air defense systems and he went on to concluding that

Now what I am saying (lack of punch) is not having aqequade offensive strength and relying on air defense both in the air and from ground and then going for counter-offensive. This thinking demands building both offensive and defensive capabilities at SCALE. It demands an infrastructure that can first absorb opening salvo from enemy and then launching counter offensive larger than what enemy would mount on you. It is obvious that even in presence of such infrastruture party without initiative will be playing a catching game on escalation ladder. BTW, both books you refer don't take into account prevailing asymmetric situation between IAF/PAF. The authors have written from USAF prespective where it always enjoys numerical and technological superiority. My argument is simple. PAF will be better not adopting this expensive defensive architecture and have some capabilities in the sleeve that will enable it to take the war to enemy right from the onset of a future conflict. Pakistan can achieve this with vertical force integration by combining firepower from army, navy and PAF.

6. How about we both give each other a topic of academic research and exchange our papers. This will also help in your IR degree and then we can send both papers for peer review. Oxford style debate is obviously not possible here due to techincial limitations of forum. Through this research we can explain our argument about developing offensive capabilities in Indo-Pakistan air balance of power in context of ongoing conflicts (Ukraine, Iran etc.) Offer is here, Any taker?

Apologies for long post.
I can't tell you how many hits and this is exactly the issue. You have umpires in war games and if you are able to take out all runways of a base, it is accepted that you can't operate from there. However, if there are a dozen hits but mostly on non-critical infrastructure, the base is still operational. So there can't be a single number unless we know where exactly was that hit and what were the resultant losses.

I think we should leave this debate here but I really like the idea about research. I am actually writing 4 research papers for my mid-term assignments about Chinese A2AD against USA and Airpower in South Asia. Also, my proposed thesis topic is "Impact of multi-domain operations on modern airpower" with case studies of conflicts in 2025-26.

I think that kinetic destruction is not at the same level of importance in future conflicts as it was in last century due to the impact of emerging technologies. The examples of WW2 to Vietnam are not exactly applicable today because of the new domains like space, cyber, AI, drones etc. You can do your research about it that whether the same standards of airpower to destroy enemy infrastructure hold valid today or not.

Though basic tenets of airpower remain same, the technologies have an impact on character of warfare and it has changed in my opinion. I won’t piggyback on your hardwork and it will be your intellectual property. I am here if you need any help.

To conclude, I think the kinetic might has its importance and we have seen the destruction since May around the globe through airpower employment. However, this needs a deeper research whether the target destruction requirement is same as it was in previous wars or we can rely on other assets. E.g, instead of bombing a C2 node, can we use cyber or EW to render it useless? Whatever is our current opinion, we need empirical data to support or negate the hypothesis or research question. We need a problem statement to start with.

Otherwise, I am getting tired of debating same issue again and again. We can happily go on with our lives without engaging each other again 🙏
 
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LORA is extremely potent and effective ALBM. September 2025 strike on Hamas Villa was by LORA. Video below of the strike.



You can see how accurate the strike was. There is a fuel station, wall attached, adjacent to compound There is a school nearby to this compound. Heck Missile didn't even cause damage to nearby villas or buildings. Prime minister of Qatar is on record, in a press conference said Our radars didn't know/saw it was coming.

If and when Indians get this ALBM, they gonna use it for decapitation strikes and we don't have an AD or solution to stop this missile.

India is getting this, and the "associated" family of ALBM from Israel. We all see how effective they are in taking out leadership in Iran precisely.

Pakistan will need to rethink how many of its bunkers, and C&C centres may need to be relocated and distributed to ensure they are survivable in light of this procurement. Overground installations, and C2 centres as Pakistan attacked in India, will now become equally vulnerable in Pakistan(if not more) and some of them may need to be relocated underground.

Leadership decapacitation is now a real problem for Pakistan, as is also high value target destruction.
 
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1. I referred to factor in assumed modernization of BOTH sides for scenario building and war gaming instead of focusing on one side only. Now, if you want to quantify this to polish the research there are many data sets available to help like SIPRI database. It can help us quantify the modernization of Both air forces in terms of exact numbers and we can build scenarios based on these new (futurisitc) inventories of main combat systems (fighters, SAMS, space base sensors etc.)
2. Multiple hits is a generic term here. How much qualify as "multiple"? 10,20,50?? Whatever the number is, it is certainly not indefinite. And in order to render airbase unoperational one doesn't need to completely destroy each HAS, bunker, tower in it. Constant hitting Runways and taxiway joints will be actual challeng. Optics is part of informaiton operations no one can take it out of the conflict. Only way of winning it is to put enemy airbases more under operatioanl stress by disabling their runways, communication nodes, IADS assets like SAMs. Optics will favor which party hits opponent more time. (Satellite imagery will emerge eventually).
3. That's the whole point, after hitting our bases they didn't need to shotdown 7 of our fighters. They were able to go off ramp declaring "all objectives complete" when both sides accepted ceasefire. Lolz, funny thing.. India offered this off ramp to Pakistan right after losing 8 of their fighters when no Pakistani base was hit. But obviously, Pakistan was in no position to accept it at that time without giving a response.

4. Again, the same argument. We are building defenses, YES we are but they are building offenses as well.
5. Both topics i.e. "Air power is offensive" and "PAF needs punch" are related not the same. I don't know what gave you an impression that I am saying they are the same. One is artchitecture and other is application. Books you referred are two basic academic text to understand how airpower application can be/must be employed in OFFENSIVE manner to achieve strategic results. No ways books contraditcs what I have been saying. For example, core argument in both books is that offense will always prevails no matter how resilient air defense is. In fact, Momyer in his work warned against relying on technological superiority, networking, and resilience of air defense systems and he went on to concluding that

Now what I am saying (lack of punch) is not having aqequade offensive strength and relying on air defense both in the air and from ground and then going for counter-offensive. This thinking demands building both offensive and defensive capabilities at SCALE. It demands an infrastructure that can first absorb opening salvo from enemy and then launching counter offensive larger than what enemy would mount on you. It is obvious that even in presence of such infrastruture party without initiative will be playing a catching game on escalation ladder. BTW, both books you refer don't take into account prevailing asymmetric situation between IAF/PAF. The authors have written from USAF prespective where it always enjoys numerical and technological superiority. My argument is simple. PAF will be better not adopting this expensive defensive architecture and have some capabilities in the sleeve that will enable it to take the war to enemy right from the onset of a future conflict. Pakistan can achieve this with vertical force integration by combining firepower from army, navy and PAF.

6. How about we both give each other a topic of academic research and exchange our papers. This will also help in your IR degree and then we can send both papers for peer review. Oxford style debate is obviously not possible here due to techincial limitations of forum. Through this research we can explain our argument about developing offensive capabilities in Indo-Pakistan air balance of power in context of ongoing conflicts (Ukraine, Iran etc.) Offer is here, Any taker?

Apologies for long post.
Academic papers are for intellectual self indulgence....if you intend to build your militaries on such papers you are doomed from the start.
 
India is getting this, and the "associated" family of ALBM from Israel. We all see how effective they are in taking out leadership in Iran precisely.

Pakistan will need to rethink how many of its bunkers, and C&C centres may need to be relocated and distributed to ensure they are survivable in light of this procurement. Overground installations, and C2 centres as Pakistan attacked in India, will now become equally vulnerable in Pakistan(if not more) and some of them may need to be relocated underground.

Leadership decapacitation is now a real problem for Pakistan, as is also high value target destruction.
@Oscar has raised some valid questions about timline of Indians taking the LORA. https://defencepk.com/forums/threads/pakistan-air-force-news-discussions.76/post-1207752
 
What rate is Israel producing them?
How long until integration with platforms(very likely only MKi)
How many of the platforms will be modified and how long will that take? (Timeline it took for integration of their own in-house Brahmos onto MKI and modified airframes that ended up using it.)
Training aircrews to operate system, loadmasters to handle weapon etc.

Israel is using F16s to launch these platforms, so there is no reason why the Rafales cannot be configured to operate them either(French payment fee pending of course).
 
Israel is using F16s to launch these platforms, so there is no reason why the Rafales cannot be configured to operate them either(French payment fee pending of course).
i wonder whether India could possibly have the OEMs overlook certain weapons integration because they're making big enough purchases.

If i was in the IAF's shoes, i would have looked at the development of those interface pylons the Turks, Chinese and others use. Would streamline integration processes and make it so that they're not dependant on OEM extractions. Sure, the physical aspect of it would still remain, the testing and certification etc, but that could be done by the IAF. The other side would be taken care of by those types of solutions.

I believe the Philippinos were the first to deploy such a solution, i dont remember on what platform, but it was touched on a little bit that they were using "ipad's to drop bombs".

I guess this is where the difference in outlook comes in though. While the questions are valid, like when, how, what platform. The most important takeaway should be that there is an intent to deploy the system, thus our reaction should be how can we degrade its effectiveness, as opposed to cope and take the piss out of the sorry state of the Indians
 
i wonder whether India could possibly have the OEMs overlook certain weapons integration because they're making big enough purchases.

If i was in the IAF's shoes, i would have looked at the development of those interface pylons the Turks, Chinese and others use. Would streamline integration processes and make it so that they're not dependant on OEM extractions. Sure, the physical aspect of it would still remain, the testing and certification etc, but that could be done by the IAF. The other side would be taken care of by those types of solutions.

I believe the Philippinos were the first to deploy such a solution, i dont remember on what platform, but it was touched on a little bit that they were using "ipad's to drop bombs".

I guess this is where the difference in outlook comes in though. While the questions are valid, like when, how, what platform. The most important takeaway should be that there is an intent to deploy the system, thus our reaction should be how can we degrade its effectiveness, as opposed to cope and take the piss out of the sorry state of the Indians

India has the engineering talent to be able to create integration pathways via pylons for certain but the don't. Is the issue bureaucracy, end user terms for the Rafale, of the failure of imagination.

The ALBM are a significant threat for sure given their accuracy.
 
Is the issue bureaucracy, end user terms for the Rafale, of the failure of imagination.
atleast for the second point, with the amount of money India is pouring into france, its a cash cow for their industry, one i suspect theyd be willing to do a bit of gymnastics to keep on their good side.
 

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