Turkey Greece Relations and Maritime Disputes

[Foinikas]

instead of useless Greek interests

You really don't have to be so nasty all the bloody time.

 

[Oublious]

I just saw this on TV.

It's too bad someone didn't explain to Mr.Barrack how Greeced ended up with S-300s in the first place.

Overall,I see that Tom Barrack is more Turkish than the Turks themselves. One could say he fights for Turkish interests more than he does for American ones.

IT doesn't matter, Turkiye did the right thing force them, ther is a agreement that ther is a arm ambargo on Cyrpus. So you can just like that ignore the agreements made? Well we can learn you the hard ways...


always the victim like zionists...

 

[MMM-E]

You really don't have to be so nasty all the bloody time.

Why are Greeks so want to be anti-Turkiye always ? whats your problem

Your Greece never can match with Turkiye one on one ... why are you so engaging in actions that will destroy peace ?

Why are you not trying to maintain good neighborly relations with Turkiye ?

always hostality and hatred
Greeks are eager to follow the lead of the big powers to attack Turkiye; it was like this 100 years ago, and it is like this today


Greek mentality :
USA-France-Germany-etc should impose arms embargo on Turkiye
to get modern weapons from USA-Europe and together to attack on Turkiye

Turkiye never says , dont sell F-35 , RAFALE , F-16V to Greece

 

[Foinikas]

ther is a agreement that ther is a arm ambargo on Cyrpus.

What arms embargo? When was an arms embargo imposed on Cyprus by the UN?

And I think you're forgetting a couple of things:

1.The Republic of Cyprus is the internationally recognized legal government of Cyprus. The TRNC is a non-recognized entity,seen as a de facto State with an occupying army. That's how the international community sees it.

2.Turkey ignored the arms embargo on Libya,you can't go around point fingers.

 

[Foinikas]

Why are Greeks so want to be anti-Turkiye always ? whats your problem

What's our problem?

I've showed you many times. Mavi Vatan,open threats. Hostility. Casus belli about 12 miles in the Aegean. Bullying the Greek Cypriot side into not making profit out of their Exclusive Economic Zone. Building up forces in Western Turkey. Establishing new units right across the Greek islands.

Why are you not trying to maintain good neighborly relations with Turkiye ?

always hostality and hatred

Excuse me?

Greeks are eager to follow the lead of the big powers to attack Turkiye; it was like this 100 years ago, and it is like this today

You're stuck in 1920,going on about it every time. Which big powers are planning to attack Turkey right now and you're using this an argument all the time? Is USA planning to attack Turkey? Is Russia planning to attack Turkey? China?

Greek mentality :
USA-France-Germany-etc should impose arms embargo on Turkiye
to get modern weapons from USA-Europe and together to attack on Turkiye

Turkiye never says , dont sell F-35 , RAFALE , F-16V to Greece

Of course Turkey never says that,Turkey simply says "Hey Greece,stop arming. Hey Greece,you should not have any army on the islands. Hey Greece,no need to fly F-16s over the Aegean,we will do it for you. Hey Greece,don't spend so much money on defence". Many of those lines were from the Akar-Cavusoglu era.

 

[MMM-E]

What's our problem?

I've showed you many times. Mavi Vatan,open threats. Hostility. Casus belli about 12 miles in the Aegean. Bullying the Greek Cypriot side into not making profit out of their Exclusive Economic Zone. Building up forces in Western Turkey. Establishing new units right across the Greek islands.

12 miles is the hostility and to destroy peace - balance in the Aegean which was established by the Treaty of Lausanne 1923

MAVI VATAN is a reaction to lunatic Greek claims.

Excuse me?

President ERDOGAN never called US/Greece as enemies

ERDOGAN mostly responds to "threats" or specific Greek policies ( request to increase territorial waters to 12 miles, militarization of islands , Cyprus , etc ).

President ERDOGAN always called USA as a strategic partner
ERDOGAN has criticized specific American policies harshly such as arming terror groups (YPG, seen by Turkiye as linked to PKK terrorists), sheltering FETO and perceived support for plots against Turkiye


in reality Greek Defense Minister called NATO ally Turkiye as enemy

Greek minister says country vigilant against 'enemy' Turkey

Greece's defense minister has described Turkey as an "enemy that continues to provoke us" and says he has ordered more military personnel to be deployed to islands in the eastern Aegean Sea.

apnews.com

 

[MMM-E]

You're stuck in 1920,going on about it every time. Which big powers are planning to attack Turkey right now and you're using this an argument all the time? Is USA planning to attack Turkey? Is Russia planning to attack Turkey? China?

Russia , China are not planing to attack Turkiye

Greece is waiting for green light from USA-France to attack Turkiye as like 1919-1922 period

Greece even signed defense agreements with these countries against Turkiye

Of course Turkey never says that,Turkey simply says "Hey Greece,stop arming. Hey Greece,you should not have any army on the islands. Hey Greece,no need to fly F-16s over the Aegean,we will do it for you. Hey Greece,don't spend so much money on defence". Many of those lines were from the Akar-Cavusoglu era.

Turkiye always says that Greeks stockpiled Weapons on the islands right next to us and in Southern Cyprus by violating international agreements

They are simply issuing warnings against your hostile attitude.
Greeks became increasingly spoiled year by year and abused ERDOGAN's goodwill.

 

[MMM-E]

2.Turkey ignored the arms embargo on Libya,you can't go around point fingers.

The UAE , Egypt , Russia , France ignored the arms embargo on Libya first

then Turkiye has started supporting legal Libyan government against multi-national alliance

 

[Foinikas]

Greece is waiting for green light from USA-France to attack Turkiye as like 1919-1922 period

With what my good man? What are you ranting about again,why are you stuck in 1919-1922? How will Greece attack Turkey,when Greece can barely defend in a war at the current State of its Armed Forces and economy?

Greece even signed defense agreements with these countries against Turkiye

Greece has signed purely defensive agreements with France. And an agreement of mutual help with the Saudi Arabia and UAE,but not of the size and length of the one with France.

Turkiye always says that Greeks stockpiled Weapons on the islands right next to us and in Southern Cyprus by violating international agreements

What stockpiled weapons,what are you even...



Stop swallowing your government's or every random ultranationalist journalist's propaganda just like that.

They are simply issuing warnings against your hostile attitude.
Greeks became increasingly spoiled year by year and abused ERDOGAN's goodwill.

You have an entire ARMY level formation opposite us. You have the largest landing fleet in the Mediterranean and now you're creating brand new formations. And somehow we are the problem?

 

[Foinikas]

12 miles is the hostility and to destroy peace - balance in the Aegean which was established by the Treaty of Lausanne 1923

MAVI VATAN is a reaction to lunatic Greek claims.

Even if we exclude Greece's right by international law to expand to 12 miles,since the 80s,
Turkey has been adding up problem and desputing Greek sovereignity in the Aegean little by little. Even with the 6 miles,Turkey has been inventing problems. And this Mavi Vatan is the lunacy,it's not the reaction to "lunatic Greek claims",it's the lunacy itself. It's the violation of what you claim as "Treaty of Lausanne 1923 peace-balance".

President ERDOGAN never called US/Greece as enemies

i don't give a **** if he calls the US enemies.

When he goes on for months and months about "Ey Yunan! Watch your past! We will throw you to the sea" and of course the quote "We might come suddenly,one night..."
meaning basically "Do as we say or we attack you",you don't have to be declared an enemy.

It's like saying the Third Reich never called Poland an enemy,they just invaded.

 

[MMM-E]

And this Mavi Vatan is the lunacy,it's not the reaction to "lunatic Greek claims",it's the lunacy itself. It's the violation of what you claim as "Treaty of Lausanne 1923 peace-balance".

Turkish offer = 50% to Greece and 50% to Turkiye

Greek offer = 90% to Greece and 10% to Turkiye

and you are calling Turkish offer as lunatic ....
Lunatic Greek claim is the violation of the Treaty of Lausanne 1923 peace-balance"

lunatic Greek offer

 

[MMM-E]

What stockpiled weapons,what are you even...

Systems that have been deployed and will be deployed soon

-- Brigade/division level troops, Tanks, cannons, Howitzers , etc (Lesbos, Chios, Samos, Kos, Leros, Rhodes etc.)


-- F-16 Fighter Jets ( to the island of Lemnos).


PATRIOT AD System
PULS MLRS
SPIKE NLOS Missiles

LORA Ballistic Missile
SPYDER - BARAK-MX and DAVID's SLING AD Systems

 

[MMM-E]

You have an entire ARMY level formation opposite us. You have the largest landing fleet in the Mediterranean and now you're creating brand new formations. And somehow we are the problem?

Turks and Greeks can do it in their own mainland .. No any problem

but Greece's deployment of troopsand weapons to the Aegean islands (particularly those islands that were supposed to be demilitarized according to the Treaties of Lausanne and Paris) which constitutes a violation of those agreements.

 

[Foinikas]

Turkish offer = 50% to Greece and 50% to Turkiye

Greek offer = 90% to Greece and 10% to Turkiye

and you are calling Turkish offer as lunatic ....
Lunatic Greek claim is the violation of what you claim as "Treaty of Lausanne 1923 peace-balance"

Do you understand how ironic it is for you to call this a "lunatic offer" and claim the Turkish one is fair? And on top of all this to mention the Treaty of Lausanne?

The Treaty of Lausanne explicitly says that apart from Imbros,Tenedos and the Rabbit Islands,Turkey is only entitled to 3 miles from its coast(except certain islands in Greek sovereignity).

It's like I'm fucking coming to your house in Samsun or wherever you live and tell you

"50% OF THIS IS MINE! Fair offer! Don't be a lunatic. It's a fair offer! 50-50! We both gain" and you're just staring at me like "wtf?"

 

[Foinikas]

Turks and Greeks can do it in their own mainland .. No any problem

but Greece's deployment of troopsand weapons to the Aegean islands (particularly those islands that were supposed to be demilitarized according to the Treaties of Lausanne and Paris) which constitutes a violation of those agreements.

I've repeatedly provided you with information and arguments that debunk this Turkish claim. Repeatedly. And you always end up not being able to refute them and you go back to talking about old battles and wars. And then,as if you have the memory of a fish,you use the same claims on another thread.

For the sake of argument and to inform members that happen to stumble upon this thread,let's go over once more,why this claim is not valid:

Limnos and Samothrace​

The demilitarization of the Greek islands of Limnos and Samothrace along with the demilitarization of the Dardanelles, the Sea of Marmara and the Bosporus, and the Turkish Imbros (Gokceada), Tenedos (Bozcaada) and Rabbit Islands (Tavcan), was originally provided for in the 1923 Lausanne Treaty on the Straits. This was annulled by the 1936 Montreux Treaty, which, as it categorically stated in its preamble, replaced in its entirety the aforementioned Lausanne Treaty.

Greece’s right to militarize Limnos and Samothrace was recognized by Türkiye, in accordance with the letter sent to the Greek Prime Minister on 6 May 1936 by the Turkish Ambassador in Athens at the time, Roussen Esref, upon instructions from his Government. The Turkish government reiterated this position when the then Turkish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Rustu Aras, in his address to the Turkish National Assembly on the occasion of the ratification of the Montreux Treaty, unreservedly recognized Greece’s legal right to deploy troops on Limnos and Samothrace, with the following statement : “The provisions pertaining to the islands of Limnos and Samothrace, which belong to our neighbor and friendly country Greece and were demilitarized in application of the 1923 Lausanne Treaty, were also abolished by the new Montreux Treaty, which gives us great pleasure” (Gazette of the Minutes of the Turkish National Assembly, volume 12, July 31/1936, page 309). During the same period, Türkiye gave similar assurances on this subject to the governments of interested third countries.

The status of Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Ikaria​

The Lausanne Treaty makes no mention of these islands having been granted demilitarized status.

The Greek government simply commits to not establishing naval bases or fortifications there in accordance with Article 13 of the Treaty. More specifically, this article specifies that:

“With a view to ensuring the maintenance of peace, the Greek Government undertakes to observe the following restrictions in the islands of Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Nikaria:
• No naval base and no fortification will be established in the said islands.
• Greek military aircraft will be forbidden to fly over the territory of the Anatolian coast. Reciprocally, the Turkish Government will forbid their military aircraft to fly over the said islands.
• The Greek military forces in the said islands will be limited to the normal contingent called up for military service, which can be trained on the spot, as well as to a force of gendarmerie and police in proportion to the force of gendarmerie and police existing in the whole of the Greek territory”.

Whilst to date Greece has faithfully implemented these provisions, Türkiye has repeatedly violated the legal obligations incumbent upon it and continues to do so, despite the fact that the same article obliges Türkiye not to permit its military aircraft to enter the airspace of these Greek islands.

On the other hand, the same article permits Greece to maintain a normal contingent called up for military service, which can be trained on the spot, as well as a force of gendarmerie and police.

The Status of the Islands of the South-Eastern Aegean (the Dodecanese)​

The Dodecanese islands were ceded to Greece in full sovereignty by the Paris Peace Treaty between Italy and the Allies in April 1947. The provisions of this Treaty provided for the demilitarization of these islands: “The above islands shall be demilitarized and shall remain so”. There is a National Guard presence on the Dodecanese islands, which has been declared in accordance with CFE provisions.

With regard to Turkish claims on the demilitarization of the Dodecanese islands, it should be noted that:

• Türkiye is not a signatory state to this Treaty, which therefore constitutes a "res inter alios acta" for Türkiye; i.e., an issue pertaining to others. According to Article 34 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, a treaty does not create obligations or rights for third countries.
• The demilitarized status of the Dodecanese islands was imposed after the decisive intervention of the Soviet Union and echoes Moscow’s political intentions at that point in time. It should, however, be noted that demilitarized status lost its raison d’être with the creation of NATO and the Warsaw Pact, as incompatible with countries’ participation in military alliances. Against this backdrop, demilitarized status ceased to apply to the Italian islands of Pantelaria, Lampedusa, Lampione and Linosa, as well as to West Germany on the one hand and Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany, Hungary and Finland on the other.

It should be stressed that Greece, just like any other country in the world, has never ceded its natural right of defense in the event of a threat to its islands or any other part of its territory, especially since there has been sufficient proof over the past decades that Türkiye is acting in an inconsistent manner and in violation of the United Nations Charter (casus belli).

Apart from the threat of war, Türkiye:
• invaded Cyprus in 1974, in violation of the Cyprus Treaty of Guarantee, to which Greece is a signatory state, and despite the numerous United Nations Security Council and General Assembly Resolutions to the contrary, still continues to maintain substantial military forces in the occupied territories.
• has systematically violated Greek Air Space, with its military aircraft, often armed, making overflights of inhabited Greek islands in the Aegean Sea, which raises serious security concerns.
• over the past three decades, has maintained a significant number of military units, aircraft and landing craft at points on the coast of Asia Minor just across from the Greek islands, which is a serious threat against Greece.

This state of affairs, in conjunction with the threat of a casus belli should Greece extend its territorial waters to 12 nautical miles as is its legal entitlement, coupled with a more general revisionist tendency in Türkiye concerning International Treaties determining the status of the Aegean, oblige Greece to be in a state of preparedness such as will allow it, if need be, to exercise its right to legitimate defense, as provided for in Article 51 of the United Nations Charter and to protect the Greek islands of the Aegean