Pakistani National Anthem.

[peagle]

By more than 90% population at least.

That's just not true.
There's not a single language in India which is understood by 90% of the population.

The implication was who understands it as part of their normal language, Indian national anthem is written in a heavily Sankritised form of Bengali language, people who understand that is in the single digits.

But I would agree that most Indians understand the meaning because it is specifically Taught, it's an organised learnt understanding.

 

[peagle]

As much I want peace between India and Pakistan and don't wish a harm to any Indian peaceful person, I think Pakistan and India have evolved to be too different now. Look at this version of the Pakistani anthem. Many in this would be some 'stars' in India's Bollywood but they are mostly just ordinary Pakistani ladies (and gents).

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Words and Language matters.
We were never the same, in the video she also uses lots lazy language and words as well.

South Asia has three main civilisational groups, they have influenced each other, due to geography but each exists within it's own respective realities and value systems.

1. Indus civilisation.
2. Gangetic civilisation.
3. Dravidian civilisation.

 

[peagle]

@Meengla @Blain2 @Fatman17 @PAKISTANFOREVER @Hakikat ve Hikmet @El Sidd @Master Chief

 

[El Sidd]

Only extreme ethno-nationalists complain about Urdu as being "imposed". We, as a nation, needed a common medium to converge on. Nobody wanted "angraizi" and people did not want "Hindi" thus Urdu (which was not alien to the land either having been the language of the Mughal court).

While Urdu became synonymous with the "migrants", what is to be noted is that the "ownership" of this language included many a shining lights emerging from what became Pakistan of today. After all, who can deny the impact of Muhammad Iqbal, Sadat Hasan Manto, Faiz Ahmed Faiz, Ashfaq Ahmad, Anwar Masood (all from Punjab) and Ahmad Faraz (KP) among others?

Those ethno-nationalists do have a successful blueprint in Bangladesh and the Bengali language to keep trying again and harder. As far as ownership is concerned, that belongs to the institution and migrant community showcase a poor command of the Urdu language as this community was never homogeneous and spoke different dialects and variations of the lashkari zubaan.

I see. You are doing your usual trolling. Nice.

You asked a question, he gave you an answer, with nuance and context.
If you wanted a specific answer then you should have attached terms and conditions. He is not required to give an answer that you want to hear, but an answer which covers the topic, which he did.

I asked a very specific question. The answer I received was downright insulting.

Urdu has been a cultural and historical part of our identity for centuries in more ways then we realise.
It was the official language in most of the Indus region, that's Punjab, KPK and Kashmir since the 19th century and unofficially long before. It is also part of our religious heritage, please search which language contains the largest amount of Islamic literature in the world especially in South Asia, it's Urdu.

Furthermore, we're not born with inherent knowledge about anything, we learn, just like you could not have logged in on this forum or wrote your post without knowing English, you were not born with English, you learnt it. Similarly, it is not difficult to learn the meaning of the national anthem, you only have to learn it.

People have very little motivation to learn Urdu. It offers them absolutely no advantage. Someone in Chakwal, Pasni or Milan shah do not face the consequences of not knowing the national language of the country they were born and call home.

@Meengla @Blain2 @Fatman17 @PAKISTANFOREVER @Hakikat ve Hikmet @El Sidd @Master Chief

This just makes my point clearer that the anthem highlights the founding doctrine of the ideological state of Pakistan while Indian national anthem just lists down territories that the imposed Indian identity wishes to colonise.

 

[SteppeWolff]

A beautiful explanation:

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Great video! but there's a small correction the anthem is still very much in Urdu! It is just a highly Persianised version of Urdu since many of the terms used in the anthem, even though they are not used in day to day terms, are still present in Urdu. Hafeez Jalandhari's reason for using such terms wasn't to make it sound 'un-Indian' but because the tune for the national anthem was adopted years before the lyrics were written and so Jalandhari had to come up with terms and sentences to fit within an already existing tune. When the anthem first came out, the vast majority of the country was in open opposition to it because of its usage of highly Persianised Urdu. Jalandhari did however successfully defend his choice of words and the anthem came around to becoming much more celebrated than it was in its early years.

 

[Master Chief]

Great thread, dear gentlemen.

One small observation about the translation shared.

"Centre" is a more literal meaning of the Arabic word "markaz".

"Citadel" is truer to the intended contextual meaning. It takes hardly a moment's thought to realise that Pakistan has indeed always been a bastion, a stronghold, a citadel, the ramparts of which are patrolled by those who would dare to take pride in the fact that Pakistan shall endure.

@El Sidd
@peagle
@Meengla

 

[El Sidd]

By more than 90% population at least.

What is more to an Indian if he doesn't exaggerate, lie or deceive?

It takes an Indian to lie through his teeth straight faced.

Kudos to 2 gentleman who fell for it.

 

[onlinpunit]

What is more to an Indian if he doesn't exaggerate, lie or deceive?

It takes an Indian to lie through his teeth straight faced.

Kudos to 2 gentleman who fell for it.

As an ex indian how much do you lie ?

 

[Distant_Observer]

It needs to be re-recorded and remastered with a full orchestra.

 

[onlinpunit]

That's just not true.
There's not a single language in India which is understood by 90% of the population.

The implication was who understands it as part of their normal language, Indian national anthem is written in a heavily Sankritised form of Bengali language, people who understand that is in the single digits.

But I would agree that most Indians understand the meaning because it is specifically Taught, it's an organised learnt understanding.

I am talking about national anthem not the language. All literate indian who have been to school know the anthem and it's meaning.
Now even for language all hindi, bangla, odia, assam speakers can easily understand the language.

 

[Blain2]

Those ethno-nationalists do have a successful blueprint in Bangladesh and the Bengali language to keep trying again and harder. As far as ownership is concerned, that belongs to the institution and migrant community showcase a poor command of the Urdu language as this community was never homogeneous and spoke different dialects and variations of the lashkari zubaan.



I asked a very specific question. The answer I received was downright insulting.

People have very little motivation to learn Urdu. It offers them absolutely no advantage. Someone in Chakwal, Pasni or Milan shah do not face the consequences of not knowing the national language of the country they were born and call home.

This just makes my point clearer that the anthem highlights the founding doctrine of the ideological state of Pakistan while Indian national anthem just lists down territories that the imposed Indian identity wishes to colonise.

People are free to speak their local dialects alongside Urdu. If you don't like Urdu, you can converge on English. If not then perhaps Arabic but you do need a language that brings drastically different ethnicities within a country on to a common plane. People are free to speak broken Urdu or Angraizi. I recall learning Sindhi, very poor at it, alongside Urdu/English while I was in the Sind board. Not my native tongue but when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Provinces can teach their provincial languages to the citizens yet that does not take away from the need to have a national language.

I'd say, at least Urdu is less alien than English/Arabic.

"Little motivation to learn Urdu" is not a good enough excuse. That is a lazy excuse because the same could be said about learning English by our populace. You go to the west, you have to learn their language so you can get by. Indians learn Hindi so they can get by. Perhaps those in Tamil Nadu don't want to learn Hindi as it is considered the language of the North but they do to be functional. All of the Soviet Union learned Russian despite each ethnicity having its own language. It is no different for Pakistanis and Urdu.

 

[onlinpunit]

People are free to speak their local dialects alongside Urdu. If you don't like Urdu, you can converge on English. If not then perhaps Arabic but you do need a language that brings drastically different ethnicities within a country on to a common plane. People are free to speak broken Urdu or Angraizi. I recall learning Sindhi, very poor at it, alongside Urdu/English while I was in the Sind board. Not my native tongue but when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Provinces can teach their provincial languages to the citizens yet that does not take away from the need to have a national language.

I'd say, at least Urdu is less alien than English/Arabic.

"Little motivation to learn Urdu" is not a good enough excuse. That is a lazy excuse. You go to the west, you have to learn their language so you can get by. Indians learn Hindi so they can get by. Perhaps those in Tamil Nadu don't want to learn Hindi as it is considered the language of the North but they do to be functional. It is no different for Pakistanis and Urdu.

Languae policy of india
1. Central Govt : All work to be done in Hindi and english..
2. State Govt : All work to be done in Local offical language and english..
3. Communication b/w Centre and State : English and Hindi
4.. Communication b/w State and Centre : English mandatory plus local state language (optional)..
5. Communication between two states : English.
6. Education : Tri Language policy ( English, Local offical Language and one optional langue of choice : 99% non hindi state students chose hindi as optional language for practical reasons).
Exception : Tamilnadu.
Also in case of sufficient number of minority language speaker in a state ( eg Bengali/ urdu in bihar ) state govt has to open minority Language medium school..

 

[Blain2]

Languae policy of india
1. Central Govt : All work to be done in Hindi and english..
2. State Govt : All work to be done in Local offical language and english..
3. Communication b/w Centre and State : English and Hindi
4.. Communication b/w State and Centre : English mandatory plus local state language (optional)..
5. Communication between two states : English.
6. Education : Tri Language policy ( English, Local offical Language and one optional langue of choice : 99% non hindi state students chose hindi as optional language for practical reasons).
Exception : Tamilnadu.
Also in case of sufficient number of minority language speaker in a state ( eg Bengali/ urdu in bihar ) state govt has to open minority Language medium school..

"99% non hindi state students chose hindi as optional language for practical reasons"

You made my point on this thread. Without being emotionally attached to any language, you need a medium of communication that is common across the masses.

For the proponents of ethnic languages over Urdu, the question would be, if not Urdu or English then what? If we can't expect our citizens to learn one common language like Urdu or English, do we expect them to learn ALL the provincial languages just so they can get by in the country?

 

[onlinpunit]

"99% non hindi state students chose hindi as optional language for practical reasons"

You made my point on this thread. Without being emotionally attached to any language, you need a medium of communication that is common across the masses.

For the proponents of ethnic languages over Urdu, the question would be, if not Urdu or English then what? If we can't expect our citizens to learn one common language like Urdu or English, do we expect them to learn ALL the provincial languages just so they can get by in the country?

A common language is always necessary in multi ethnic and linguist states like india and pakistan. Keep english but a language which can be understood by most number of people is also very much required. Urdu is doing good in this regard.

 

[El Sidd]

As an ex indian how much do you lie ?

Ex Indian? You must be one of those educated people who believe India was partitioned.

People are free to speak their local dialects alongside Urdu. If you don't like Urdu, you can converge on English. If not then perhaps Arabic but you do need a language that brings drastically different ethnicities within a country on to a common plane. People are free to speak broken Urdu or Angraizi. I recall learning Sindhi, very poor at it, alongside Urdu/English while I was in the Sind board. Not my native tongue but when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Provinces can teach their provincial languages to the citizens yet that does not take away from the need to have a national language.

I'd say, at least Urdu is less alien than English/Arabic.

"Little motivation to learn Urdu" is not a good enough excuse. That is a lazy excuse because the same could be said about learning English by our populace. You go to the west, you have to learn their language so you can get by. Indians learn Hindi so they can get by. Perhaps those in Tamil Nadu don't want to learn Hindi as it is considered the language of the North but they do to be functional. All of the Soviet Union learned Russian despite each ethnicity having its own language. It is no different for Pakistanis and Urdu.

Urdu is still evolving and still a very modern language. It has taken many words from English and continue to adopt and utilise foreign words but it has failed the task of national language be it lack of interest by the people or by the state to propagate it properly.

English seems to be a better bet as people have more motivation to learn it than Urdu which carries negative political baggage specially given the history of it being one of the reasons for losing Eastern wing.