PAF SAM based Air Defense System - News, Discussion & Updates

It is a lesson that no defense system can properly tackle drones specially small one. You will see weekly news that Pakistani drone spotted in India. Drones are new reality and I am glad Pakistan really invested in this sector regardless of having an as@ kind of defense. For ace kind of defense we wil need a bule print from zero and invest or buy new equipment otherwise build underground settlers. What i mean is that possible 10 to 15 years ahead, both India and Pakistan will knockout each other defense via suicide drones and among 2 only one will who has tolerance of strikes intake will win.
 
1、The HQ-9 series SAM is positioned as a medium-to-long-range air defense system; the HQ-16 series SAM is positioned as a medium-to-short-range SAM. Their roles are completely different. Their interception range, interception altitude, radar detection capabilities, and missile size are all significantly different. Of course, this comparison is based on different sub-versions from the same era. You cannot compare the latest HQ-16 with the oldest HQ-9. Specific data can be found through many channels. ------ The HQ-9C is a "mini version" developed based on the HQ-9B technology. Its interceptor missile's operating range overlaps with the HQ-16 series, but its size is much smaller.

2. The HQ-9P in Pakistan is not a factory-grade version. It is a version customized for Pakistan based on the HQ-9A. The HQ-9BE in Pakistan is the standard export version of the HQ-9B.

Besides the difference in interception distance, there is also a difference in interception altitude. The HQ-9BE can intercept at an altitude of 50 km, while the HQ-16FE's maximum interception altitude is 27 km. The WZ-8 reconnaissance aircraft typically operates at an altitude between 30 km and 50 km, which is significantly higher than the HQ-16FE's maximum interception altitude.
So HQ9BE is well suited to counter ballistic missiles than HQ16FE?
 
It is a lesson that no defense system can properly tackle drones specially small one. You will see weekly news that Pakistani drone spotted in India. Drones are new reality and I am glad Pakistan really invested in this sector regardless of having an as@ kind of defense. For ace kind of defense we wil need a bule print from zero and invest or buy new equipment otherwise build underground settlers. What i mean is that possible 10 to 15 years ahead, both India and Pakistan will knockout each other defense via suicide drones and among 2 only one will who has tolerance of strikes intake will win.
yeah drones really messed up the conventional way of modern combat, im hoping we see more SHORADS or Anti-UAV like the LY-1, Type 625E and/or FK-3000s for close defense procured by the PAF/AADC, the Crotales and stuff cannot keep up anymore
 
So HQ9BE is well suited to counter ballistic missiles than HQ16FE?
The only way to describe it is as follows:

Under the same generation, the HQ-9BE detects targets earlier and launches interceptor missiles earlier than the HQ-16FE.

Of course, the HQ-9BE is also more expensive, including the cost of procuring the SAM system and the cost of interceptor missile consumption.

Ballistic missile interception typically involves a multi-layered air defense network. If the first layer fails, the second layer begins interception... and so on.

Currently, China's air defense network consists of:
Exoatmospheric defense: HQ-26/29
Atmospheric edge defense: HQ-19
Long-range intraatmospheric defense: HQ-9/HQ-22
Medium-range intraatmospheric defense: HQ-16/HQ-20
Short-range intraatmospheric defense: HQ-10/HQ-17
 
Pakistan better be prepared for the $2billion worth of drones the Indians are buying. Just last week i read this news. Thats an insane amount of drones. They will be swarming all over pakistan. And if they are fpv drones we need to develop drones that fly around cutting the cables enmasse. We should have ciws everywhere along the border. The Indians will be looking for revenge and are preparing themselves with Israel's help. I hope our guys are well prepared

Just imagine are new hangor submarines parked at harbour being hit by these cheap drones. It would be an utter disaster. They should be building cages everywhere and have drones flying 24/7 capable of shooting down or cutting the cables of these fpv type of drones
 
Interesting concept, probably for drone swarm and PGM defence:

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Retrofitting BM21 Grads as a Swarm drone launcher doesn't sound too bad of an idea
 
Interesting concept, probably for drone swarm and PGM defence:

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Flak munitions, good idea. Combine that with fast firing guns you are good to go against drones. Pakistan has the latter now.


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Retrofitting BM21 Grads as a Swarm drone launcher doesn't sound too bad of an idea
107mm rockets or custom smaller ones. Grad/Yarmook is too big. Maybe they’d be suited as a similar concept for a shield against bigger threats like SSCMs.
 
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Pakistan better be prepared for the $2billion worth of drones the Indians are buying. Just last week i read this news. Thats an insane amount of drones. They will be swarming all over pakistan. And if they are fpv drones we need to develop drones that fly around cutting the cables enmasse. We should have ciws everywhere along the border. The Indians will be looking for revenge and are preparing themselves with Israel's help. I hope our guys are well prepared

Just imagine are new hangor submarines parked at harbour being hit by these cheap drones. It would be an utter disaster. They should be building cages everywhere and have drones flying 24/7 capable of shooting down or cutting the cables of these fpv type of drones
Get every kite flyer out there with glass laced thread with the sole objective of Bo katta.

not kidding.
 
The only way to describe it is as follows:

Under the same generation, the HQ-9BE detects targets earlier and launches interceptor missiles earlier than the HQ-16FE.

Of course, the HQ-9BE is also more expensive, including the cost of procuring the SAM system and the cost of interceptor missile consumption.

Ballistic missile interception typically involves a multi-layered air defense network. If the first layer fails, the second layer begins interception... and so on.

Currently, China's air defense network consists of:
Exoatmospheric defense: HQ-26/29
Atmospheric edge defense: HQ-19
Long-range intraatmospheric defense: HQ-9/HQ-22
Medium-range intraatmospheric defense: HQ-16/HQ-20
Short-range intraatmospheric defense: HQ-10/HQ-17

It's important to distinguish between HQ-9B and HQ-9C in PLA are entirely different missile platforms despite carrying the HQ-9 code. Both serve entirely different purposes and both are considered the latest HQ-9 operated by PLA.

HQ-9C is a little more optimised for BMD while HQ-9B is a little more generalist.

You also forgot to add the other short to medium systems and SHORADs used by PLA.
  • FK-3000
  • HQ-11
  • HQ-13 vehicle mounted SHORAD
  • Type 625 wheeled gun + missile SHORAD
Without including all the small to large lasers and microwave weapons used for air defence by the PLA and also the ship based ones, a more comprehensive list of PLA ground forces operated, layered IAD are listed below.

And to clarify some definitions I use: BMD is obviously beyond "long range". "Long range" is 150km to 400km (generally speaking HQ-16C->F limit to HQ-9B and C limit). "Medium range" is 40km to 150km (short range limit to HQ-16C->F range limit) and "short range" is SHORAD to 40km. SHORAD is below 15km. So basically there is a lot of overlapping when it comes to the system's missile ranges themselves but SHORAD and short range I've distinguished mainly because the purpose and range of the higher tier medium range has evolved so much and generally increased in range a lot over the last decade, making room for this "short range" zone between SHORAD and the new medium range.

Ordered by general "range".

SC-19: Missile dedicated for anti satellite. Kinetic kill vehicle based. Up to GTO range.

DN-2 and DN-3 (动能): Dedicated ASAT similar to SC-19. All these would also have mid course interception capability against ballistic missiles.

HQ-29: Exoatmospheric interceptor BMD more optimised for slant range to hit ICBM/SLBM payload in space prior to separation

HQ-26: similar to HQ-29, differences unknown for now. HQ-26 or HQ-29 ship launch has been shown once. Difference between the two is unlikely based on ship or land launch but capability because you would simply have HHQ-xx for the ship launch version. Likely capability difference is very cost determined and hypersonic glider related. One or both of these are purpose designed to intercept hypersonic manoeuvering targets.

HQ-19: Edge of atmosphere interceptor BMD so optimised for climb rate and to intercept individual warheads on the way down. The mainstay, mobile BMD system for PLA. Terminal phase BMD.

HQ-9C: High altitude interceptor BMD basically next layer to HQ-19. Terminal phase BMD. Warheads are closer to ground than HQ-19's range obviously.

HQ-9B: Generalist long range AD, think S-400. Went from HQ-9 to HQ-9A to HQ-9B in evolution with earliest being a combination of S-300PMU2/3 missile and launcher with Chinese digital radars and command to HQ-9B which is the latest and greatest in this series. Definitely separate type of weapon compared to HQ-9C. Both concurrently produced. Some BMD capability against IRBM and ICBM in terminal phase like S-400 and PAC-3.

HQ-12/22: Has a long history of evolution but went from large warhead short to medium range generalist to a smaller warhead, long range missile that is considered a more affordable HQ-9A/B supplement. BMD capability. I would imagine for SRBM and MRBM only.

HQ-16C to HQ-16F: The latest long evolution of the HQ-16 missile which originally was developed with the assistance of Almaz Antey as a modern Buk system. Now F series is wildly different. Completely different missile body. Range more than doubled since original 40km HQ-16 from 20 years ago. Serves as medium range component. Also generalist - engage cruise missiles, aircraft, ballistic missile warheads, drones (expensive ones only because this is still a very expensive missile!), secondary ground to ground like all large warhead SAMs e.g. HQ-9 series. So many variants to keep track of. I think HQ-16C is also the latest and like the HQ-9 platform, there are different missile types optimised for different purposes and unit mobility.

HQ-20: Quite a new system. Carries modular cabality from SHORAD to medium range.

HQ-11: New short to medium range system. Could be using the "5-5-5" missile which was discussed long ago about a new short to medium range naval interceptor that optimised fast burn time for quicker time to target but lower range. 5-5-5 referring to mach 5 within 5 seconds and 50km range. This is where this 5-5-5 missile best fits within the PLA operated SAMs. HQ-11 being a newish system lines up with the naval 5-5-5. As we know all the 055 and 052D can quad pack SAMs in their universal VLS cells which btw are considerably larger than the biggest USN VLS cell mainly because Chinese 055 and possibly even 052D need to carry large ASBM, hypersonic manoeuvering weapons and exoatmospheric BMD missiles like HQ-26/29.

HQ-17: Modernised Tor M1/2 based system from 20 years ago but developed over the decades. Still similar philosophy - to accomany moving brigades and support ground forces as a mobile, wheeled short range system to fire on the move.

FK-3000: Heavy system designed to be mobile and launch platforms to each carry up to 48 missiles. Also modular similar to the HQ-20. Range of missile types and purpose is entirely SHORAD. Some units can come with 30mm anti air cannon (air burst and kinetic staggered projectiles).

HQ-10: This is a naval based CIWS missile very similar to Western RAM. Very old system now but not sure why it's been included in the list above by Michael. Maybe confused it with HQ-13? which leads to...

HQ-13 or FB-10 latest type: Light armoured vehicle mounted SHORAD. Basically manpad for vehicle rigs. Also comes with gattling gun. Basically scaled down Type 625E.

Type 625E: Wheeled SHORAD combining manpad level missile and 25mm gattling gun. Newest version can carry up to 16 missiles rather than the previous 8 and the really old one which only carried 4 in rigs. Main purpose is mobile SHORAD.

FK-1000 and FK-2000: Pantsir like systems combining SHORAD missiles (manpad level or TY-90 based) and guns. Designed to be mobile. Outdated now.

LD-2000 and LD-3000: Land based, mobile CIWS using Type 730 and Type 1130, 30mm gattling cannons.

Anti drone is the real big new challenge and it's just too expensive to use missiles even short range ones to defend against cheap drones. The only solution is electronic war with jamming, DEW like microwave and lasers. Dedicated anti drone microwave weapons like FK-4000 and the Hurricane (飓风) series only came online in the last few years. Other fast and materially inexpensive methods are all the Chinese lasers for anti-droning. Again they are imperfect due to mobility restrictions and as Saudi Arabia experienced, sand or dust storms really deplete their effectiveness too. EW is probably the best means but there's no perfect drone defence atm. China is leading this area for sure since Saudi and Russia have had decent enough success with Chinese DEW based anti drone but imperfect. Still considerably better than US anti drone which have been close to zero effectiveness with Iran hitting whatever they please within their drone range despite US, NATO based and Israeli layered AD.

Newish SAM systems like HQ-11, FK3000 and HQ-20 are designed to operate with anti-droning in mind because they need the electronic flexibility to operate alongside heavy anti droning EW and microwave weapons. Meanwhile there are "hard" systems like the vehicle mounted (so mobile) anti drone lasers and wall of lead systems like Type 625, LD-2000 and LD-3000 to physically destroy drones too.

So basically to counter cheap drone swarms that aim to completely oversaturate AD, there is the "short range" (shorter than medium range but >15km) and SHORAD (<15km) missiles that need to be carried in the hundreds that can operate in an environment where you as the defender are also pumping a lot of jamming into, while you might be making use of microwave weapons. Lasers can supplement the missiles at around the XXm to 15km range and behind that you just have anti air gattling guns. Some drones may still get through even all that and this is the PLA.

For everyone else? Forget about defending against cheap and plentiful drones. You simply need to stay out of their range. Even PLA bringing hundreds of missiles, jammer types, lasers and microwaves plus wall of lead last defence may not be able to counter 1000s of small drones.
 
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Flak munitions, good idea. Combine that with fast firing guns you are good to go against drones. Pakistan has the latter now.


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Problem with this idea is these systems are relatively very short range. The drones can come from many openings which are 100s of km long even for the Pakistan India border. You can't position enough units of these to overlap all the gaps and even if you can, India can use artillery to take them out.

These SHORAD style defences are only limited in usefulness and need to be positioned perfectly which cannot be achieved in real combat.

SHORADs are usually mobile and designed to accompany and defend ground forces on the move. Defend as well as possible because you wont carry enough SHORAD to perfectly defend them.

Unfortunately the best response to saturation drone attacks is responding with saturation drone attacks, maybe supplemented with heavier attacks using artillery and even cruise or short range ballistic missiles.

I just realised I didn't include the aerosol anti drone method in my list of anti drone systems but that's a very soft kill method if you can even call it that.

Personally I do love the 925. Feels like a sturdier Pantsir whereas Pantsir's truck looks so delicate compared to a dedicated AFV. FK-1000 and 2000 are both Pantsir like and look delicate. Anyway their purpose is decent and Panstir contrary to western propaganda has performed somewhat well in many conflicts.

Western AD have been doing a lot of dying it's just we don't receive as much propaganda against western AD dying like we do for Russian ones. Both are always going to be defending therefore you only see the failures and NEVER see the success. In any case AD is supposed to make it harder and more resource costly for the attacker. It's not to make yourself impervious although I want to say PLA's layer IAD is the most comprehensive and heavily invested set out there and intended to be a somewhat close to impervious system when operated well and supplied well.

But no one except China obviously can operate PLA's full IAD because it requires satellites, HALE and MALE drones, smaller ISR drones and special mission aircraft, C4ISR, interoperability and sharing with EW/ECM/ECCM/ESR. The list goes on. In war, there is no way all those systems are all functioning and being operated perfectly while sustaining attacks.
 
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A nation can buy some isolated export grade systems but the usefulness is going to be a fraction. Use it to defend a few extremely important sites and that's it. Also have to be used sparingly because it's so easy to saturate them.

For these reasons and the ones listed in posts above, I don't think it's wise for Pakistan to invest heavily into AD. AD is one of those, go all the way things where you spend trillions really or be very selective and find that point of diminishing returns which is basically to protect the most high value targets well enough.

Offense is the best form of defense.

Without a proper IAD, Pakistan currently has some HQ-9B export systems and HQ-16B/C level export medium range missiles plus some SHORADs. This is enough for the latter. No need for HQ-19 and tripling numbers of systems plus launchers etc. Just buy long range artillery, drones and more AD to protect PAF well enough so PAF can do its job for long enough to get India to back down again.

Get J-35 and more MALE drones for strike purposes to supplement the volume strikes performed by Pakistan's own saturation drones, long range artillery and anti-surface missiles.

Prioritise it all. India attacks should be responded by targeting Indian C4ISR and airfields first using long range artillery and missile strikes (cruise and ballistic, whatever it is just prioritise targeting with respect to missile cost and numbers limit). Drones to strike second value targets while Pakistan's own AD is to protect nuclear capability, political leadership and PAF's most important assets within range of Indian cruise missiles and MRBMs. Drones you can forget about defending effectively against.

Basically next war would be one of drone attrition. PAF can be leveraged to do a lot of force multiplying by making IAF useless and with J-35, perform its own strikes deep into India against first tier Indian targets.

Everything in India Pakistan war is time sensitive. More time sensitive than any other war. Pakistan needs to destroy more Indian high value targets at a faster rate than India can do to Pakistan for India to find the de-escalation ramp.

I hope China sells Pakistan GJ-11 but atm this aircraft is too sensitive. I suspect due to China having several fighter sized UCAVs now that China is calling unmanned air dominance fighter (UADF), GJ-11 could be approved for sale with J-35.

There is a big geopolitical factor here though. China doesn't want to piss India off too much with GJ-11 or dedicated strike aircraft sales to Pakistan. Defense equipment is fine but highly capable offensive ones like GJ-11 is probably out of the question. China makes so much money from India even with sour relations, it's not a good idea to cut off such a decent income stream for little to gain from China's perspective.

From a military fanboy who's obviously aligned with Pakistan and against India, I hope GJ-11 at least in secret can be sold to Pakistan when J-35 is approved and delivered. With the relatively short distances in your theatre, GJ-11 couldn't need close pairing with J-20S like China needs in the western pacific.
 
Pakistan only hit India back sparingly last time because its airforce performed so well against India's IAF. With concern and unwillingness to get into an uncontrolled escalation which puts Pakistan in a weaker position since India is so much larger, Pakistan only targeted a few Indian airfields and hit one S-400 (confirmed by Serbia's president no less) and for the record to Indians Vucic's words were literally, I have seen official reports showing Pakistan's successful strike against S-400 ... using the air to ground missile we just purchased from China (referring to CM-400AKG which to China is such low tier weapon it doesn't even use it... I guess enough for Serbia's region and against India but not considered remotely useful by China against Japan or the US).

So Pakistan could easily keep hitting India as hard as India hit Pakistan when India raged with drone and missile attacks after taking IAF key assets further than 200km behind the border (out of reach of Pakistan's artillery) and grounding the IAF (IAF did not operate near the border against Pakistan after the first night on May 7th, only firing Brahmos from further back).

Pakistan couldn't and still can't afford escalation so India holds this over Pakistan but Pakistan can hold its own hit for hit until stockpiles are exhausted which would be before India exhausts its supplies.

How is this fixed? With drone production facilities, more AD to protect PAF assets closer to the border for PAF to operate a few weeks against India and J-35 + GJ-11. Pakistan is supposed to be receiving Turkish MALE drones. These would be good for numbers too.

India's own self developed AD is next to useless, missing even in training against near static targets but they are much more quantitative and they do operate foreign purchased AD like Barak and S-400 so overall their stuff is slightly more protected than Pakistan's due mainly to numbers of India's foreign purchased AD and its own production of Akash and Akash M now.

So first tier Indian targets for Pakistan's own first tier strike capability (SRBM, MRBM, cruise missiles, J-35/GJ-11 launched ordinance) would be Indian C4ISR, artillery, radars and AD assets. Problem is Pakistan doesn't have many SRBMs to spare let alone MRBMs. Cruise missile numbers are low and many of these platforms are dedicated to nuclear delivery rather than conventional war. J-35 and GJ-11 are nowhere near Pakistan service. So Pakistan essentially can only pick their targets. You've proven you can hit India hard if required but only in limited strikes.

If Pakistan had its own saturate drones, it can push India back at least 100km on the ground at a scale that PAF just can't do.

Pakistan used CM-400AKG to strike S-400 and missiles to hit the Indian airfield. PAF without J-35 or GJ-11 can't fly that far into India without contending with IAF well into Indian airspace and all the Indian AD including the very capable S-400.

PAF performing SEAD and DEAD would be very time costly and small in scale at a rate that just doesn't do much for large scale conventional war.

This is why India is arrogant and still so sure of itself. It holds absolute escalation dominance until nuclear and it knows neither side wants nuclear so wont go that far but Pakistan lacks a first tier strike capability which atm is basically just very limited numbers of higher end missiles reserved mostly for nuclear delivery and JF-17 launched CM-400AKG. This is quite unacceptable!

Meanwhile India has more ballistic missiles they can use conventionally, Brahmos and saturation drones. When it comes to second tier strike - long range artillery, India also outnumbers Pakistan.

AD does not really come into this play at all unless you go all the way invested in AD like China or the US. Not an option for Pakistan or even India which has around 5-7 systems (at least 4 of them imported - S400, Barak, MICA based SAM, Mistral and Starstreak all mostly SHORAD) vs China's >20 if we also count manpads.

The main focus for Pakistan really should be to up the numbers of SRBMs, cruise missiles and most importantly drone production rate! Having JF-17 launched CM-400AKG as best conventional strike capability is not good enough even if it's been effective against India (mostly because India's layered AD sucks).
 
Get every kite flyer out there with glass laced thread with the sole objective of Bo katta.

not kidding.
I swear to God i had thought the same..Lol lol..obv a special type of thread..But you are a 100% right
 

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