Iran - Israel/US War: Israel-US declare war on Iran, Iran responds

[unconventional]

@VCheng

Let us recap how the discourse went:

And yet, we are forced to accept that Iran has already won, and therefore we must accept its victory right now.

To which I responded:

No one is forcing you, you are free to believe anything you want.

But it is clear to everyone impartial who won this, and it’s reflected in the analyses of most international observers; and reflected even in the terms of the MOU.

We have to remember, the only concession Iran had to give in the (documented) MOU was opening up the straits, the rest were all concessions by the US. There was no mention of Iran’s nuclear program/assets.

My post was strictly about the war before the ceasefire deal/MOU was negotiated. I said Iran had won that round, which was also reflective in the text of the MOU.

You clearly disagreed with the above assessment of mine, and tried to indicate that the 60 days was important (from a US strategy standpoint).

Of course. Of course.

The 60 days mentioned in the MoU are not important, I take it?

I asked you why precisely 60 days was important for the deal, on what would be different after the 60 day period; you said you can’t predict the future. So you don’t know the importance of the 60 days, but were earlier alluding that the 60 days in the MOU were important.

My claims are strictly for the kinetic war (first round), which Iran clearly won, with the trajectory of the war and the lack of accomplishment of the strategic objectives of the war by the US and Israel. And the text of the MOU written the way it is clearly reflects that reality. I have not claimed a long term Iranian victory, my point is strictly focused on round 1 this year, and the text of the MOU applicable for the 60 day period.

Now, we cannot say what will happen after the 60 days, but nothing in the text of the MOU, the way it is written right now indicates an Iranian defeat.

 

[VCheng]

Let us recap how the discourse went:

Let's not.

A simple yes or no answer would suffice to this straightforward question:

Do you feel that the MoU has enough for Iran to declare victory?

 

[unconventional]

Let's not.

A simple yes or no answer would suffice to this straightforward question:

Do you feel that the MoU has enough for Iran to declare victory?

Which victory are you talking about?

Victory in round 1 of war this year?

Victory in the text of the MOU?

Victory in the long term conflict with the US/Iran?

 

[VCheng]

nothing in the text of the MOU, the way it is written right now indicates an Iranian defeat.

Agreed. I have never said or even implied that, since the MoU is simply a placeholder for the final agreement, at least in my view.

 

[VCheng]

Which victory are you talking about?

Does this mean that you realize there is no claim of victory or defeat possible, for either side, with the MoU, given that it is just an interim agreement to negotiate?

And just to be clear - it is good to negotiate, because that is how all wars end.

 

[unconventional]

Does this mean that you realize there is no claim of victory or defeat possible, for either side, with the MoU, given that it is just an interim agreement to negotiate?

We are seeing fanciful claims from both Trump and the Iranian regime about who won the February war; and who got the better terms in the MOU.

Any neutral observer can see Trump is completely delusional when it comes to his claims of US victory in the war against Iran, whereas Iran’s claims about what the war achieved are much more plausible and grounded in reality.

The same thing about the text of the MOU, which is what I engaged you with. What does the text exactly say, then we can determine who the terms favor or not favor compared to the pre-war situation.

Now I never disagreed that this MOU was an interim agreement, or things can change in 60 days.

But you were referring to “does the MOU have enough for Iran to claim victory”.

If we define Iran claiming victory as getting the better of the US/Israel in the war, which was reflected in the terms of the MOU, that’s a good argument to make.

If we are defining victory as Iran getting favorable terms for 60 days per the text of the MOU, then that’s true as well.

There is no definitive conclusion on what will be discussed/accomplished/ achieved after 60 days.

Can you provide references that clearly show Iran is claiming victory in the long term negotiations with the US?

Because my understanding is that Iran is very much ready to walk away from this interim deal if the war in Lebanon does not get scaled down, and there is a sustainable drawdown of Israeli military activities there.

 

[tsunset]

The US and its allies tried in vain to lead a crusade against Iran using their crusading forward base to facilitate their plans

Fortunately for Iran, 99% (all) of their allies chickened out at the last moment and the US was alone trying to crusade Iran and convert everyone to Christian Yahoodi Evangalicalism

Their plan was a successful failure

 

[VCheng]

We are seeing fanciful claims from both Trump and the Iranian regime about who won the February war; and who got the better terms in the MOU.

LOL. Making any claims on the basis of an interim MoU is premature for both sides IMO. There is nothing in the MoU that says this term or the other favors one side or another.

What the MoU represents is enough common ground for both sides to agree upon so that it can form the base from which both sides are able to negotiate a final agreement.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

Any neutral observer can see Trump is completely delusional when it comes to his claims of US victory in the war against Iran, whereas Iran’s claims about what the war achieved are much more plausible and grounded in reality.

Agreed. Trump is completely delusional, and an utter idiot to boot. I also have stated many times before that this war should never have been started in the first place!

Having said that, it is also premature for any side to claim what the war has achieved or not to date, since the final agreement is still not known.

If you find the Iranian claims more plausible, then I am fine with that. After all, I find the claims of Ghalibaf about a US defeat just as laughable as Trump's claims of an Iranian defeat.

The same thing about the text of the MOU, which is what I engaged you with. What does the text exactly say, then we can determine who the terms favor or not favor compared to the pre-war situation.

Again, let me repeat:

There is nothing in the MoU that says this term or the other favors one side or another.

What the MoU represents is enough common ground for both sides to agree upon so that it can form the base from which both sides are able to negotiate a final agreement.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

 

[unconventional]

But you didn’t answer my question about your statement that Iran has claimed victory.

Which victory were they talking about, the victory in the February war, victory in getting favorable terms in the interim agreement, or victory against the US in the long term?

And can you provide the references that clearly show who in Iran claimed victory and what specific victory they were referring to?

 

[VCheng]

But you didn’t answer my question about your statement that Iran has claimed victory.

Which victory were they talking about, the victory in the February war, victory in getting favorable terms in the interim agreement, or victory against the US in the long term?

And can you provide the references that clearly show who in Iran claimed victory and what specific victory they were referring to?

Ghalibaf:

Iran says deal to end Middle East war is "declaration of US defeat"


Baku, Azerbaijan - The deal between Iran and the US to end the Middle East war is "America's declaration of defeat," Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf, the head of the Iranian negotiating team, said on Wednesday.

Speaker of the Parliament of Iran Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf arrives at the Burgenstock resort in Obbuergen, Switzerland, for talks with the US on June 21, 2026.

"The Islamabad understanding was not the result of pressure and coercion, but rather the result of the resistance and authority of the brave Iranian nation," Ghalibaf said, referring to the text finalized through Pakistani mediation.

"That is why, the Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding became a declaration of America's defeat," he said, adding that security in the Middle East must be ensured by the countries of the region.

"We consider the withdrawal of foreign military forces from the region a strategic goal" because, "not only do they not create sustainable security but they are also a source of instability," said Ghalibaf, who also serves as his country's parliament speaker.

He was addressing a conference in Azerbaijan's capital Baku on Wednesday, which was broadcast on Iranian television.

Iran says deal to end Middle East war is "declaration of US defeat"

The deal between Iran and the US to end the Middle East war is "America's declaration of defeat," Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf said on Wednesday.

www.tag24.com

(and many other sources)

 

[unconventional]

There is nothing in the MoU that says this term or the other favors one side or another.

Again, let me repeat:

There is nothing in the MoU that says this term or the other favors one side or another.

The US public, which wanted to get out of the war (and didn’t think the war was worth it in the first place) and should have logically supported the US side on the terms of the MOU disagrees with you:

“Overall, just 22% of Americans believe the U.S.-Iran agreement is better for the U.S. than for Iran, while 37% believe it was better for Iran and 41% believe it’s about equal for each, according to the CBS/YouGov poll. And 69% of respondents do not believe the war was worth the costs, while just 31% do.”

What Americans Think of the U.S.-Iran Deal, According to Polls

A majority of Americans don’t think the war with Iran was worth the costs or that the preliminary agreement is better for the U.S. than Iran.

time.com

 

[VCheng]

The US public, which wanted to get out of the war (and didn’t think the war was worth it in the first place) and should have logically supported the US side on the terms of the MOU disagrees with you:

“Overall, just 22% of Americans believe the U.S.-Iran agreement is better for the U.S. than for Iran, while 37% believe it was better for Iran and 41% believe it’s about equal for each, according to the CBS/YouGov poll. And 69% of respondents do not believe the war was worth the costs, while just 31% do.”

What Americans Think of the U.S.-Iran Deal, According to Polls

A majority of Americans don’t think the war with Iran was worth the costs or that the preliminary agreement is better for the U.S. than Iran.

time.com

Polls is USA are a dime a dozen, especially before a crucial midterm election. Is that all you've got?

 

[unconventional]

Ghalibaf:

Iran says deal to end Middle East war is "declaration of US defeat"


Baku, Azerbaijan - The deal between Iran and the US to end the Middle East war is "America's declaration of defeat," Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf, the head of the Iranian negotiating team, said on Wednesday.

Speaker of the Parliament of Iran Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf arrives at the Burgenstock resort in Obbuergen, Switzerland, for talks with the US on June 21, 2026.

"The Islamabad understanding was not the result of pressure and coercion, but rather the result of the resistance and authority of the brave Iranian nation," Ghalibaf said, referring to the text finalized through Pakistani mediation.

"That is why, the Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding became a declaration of America's defeat," he said, adding that security in the Middle East must be ensured by the countries of the region.

"We consider the withdrawal of foreign military forces from the region a strategic goal" because, "not only do they not create sustainable security but they are also a source of instability," said Ghalibaf, who also serves as his country's parliament speaker.

He was addressing a conference in Azerbaijan's capital Baku on Wednesday, which was broadcast on Iranian television.

Iran says deal to end Middle East war is "declaration of US defeat"

The deal between Iran and the US to end the Middle East war is "America's declaration of defeat," Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf said on Wednesday.

www.tag24.com

(and many other sources)

This “defeat” he was referring to was specifically about the war this year.

His claim lines up with what the American public believes about this war, as well as what almost all international observers believe.

Trump claims of victory in the war against Iran are the ones that do not find much support.

 

[unconventional]

Polls is USA are a dime a dozen, especially before a crucial midterm election. Is that all you've got?

Can you show me who outside the Trump administration thinks the MOU has better terms for the US/Israel than for the Iranians?

 

[VCheng]

This “defeat” he was referring to was specifically about the war this year.

Has this war ended? There is only a temporary cessation of hostilities until a final agreement to end it is reached. Is that enough to claim who lost or won?

Can you show me who outside the Trump administration thinks the MOU has better terms for the US/Israel than for the Iranians?

Again, it is childish to see terms of the MoU as better for one side or another. As I have explained above, it merely represents common ground between the two sides.

That is all. Nothing more, nothing less.