JF-17 PFX program

[kaku]

If you read up on that day you will see the lack of AEW in numbers hampered the IAF. PAF struck when your single Neta to land back. Due to decent numbers PAF always had 1 Erireye in the air.

This premise is so wrong, PAF till now havent done any high tempo exercises, since I think 2005, leave alone high tempo real life operations for long durations.

I dont know from where this "1 Erieye always in air" comes from, when they havent even tested it, or dont want to test it.

Devil does lie in the detail, with just 3 Phalcons and 3 Neta. From all accounts Phalcon was not involved at all.

Phalcon was around Pathankot-Jammu sector at that time, at 30000 feet or so, and went beyound 40000 feet, after alearted by Netra (and Netra had to go back), to map the whole LEF, and manage the interceptions.

Anyone with even a basic knowledge of aircraft will tell you the down time on 30 year old IL-76 4 jet engined soviet cargo planes is much much higher then a modern twin turboprop commuter plane (SAAB 2000). Take into account downtime and training IAF will struggle getting a Phalcon in the air for even 12 hours a day.

So, F-16 is 50 years old, does it make it useless? What type of argument is that.

PAF with 10 Erieyes can pretty much keep 3 in the air constantly.

Balakot showed that despite some good equipment IAF was forced to used MIG-21s.

You use your cheapest and high performance assets for performing BARCAPs in high tempo ops. If we have Rafale, that doesnt mean it be doing BARCAPs, it be by Tejas in future.

Mirage (even upgraded) is simply no match for the APG-68/AMRAAM combo and is outranged.

IAF situation may improve but that also goes for PAF with upcoming new inductions

Mirage with RDY-3 and MICA is of almost similar capabilties.

UAV wise in sheer numbers and capability PAF has TB-2/Akinci/Wing Loon II combos as well as now Sharper 2 Block II. This is way ahead of IAF Searcher and Heron UAVs.

Lol,okey.

 

[kaku]

And they all lack SAR/ISAR imaging mode, EO sensors and SATCOM for beyond the line of sight communication.

Are you forgetting this?

 

[kaku]

That's not how dual pulse motors work. It is actually a single motor engine burning 2 kinds of fuel. Expensive high burn rate fuel is used in initial phase to push the missile to max speed. Along with it, a relatively slow burning fuel is used to sustain the speed once achieved. There are no gears here where missile will be accelerated afterward starting with a slower phase. It is actually the other way around. And also, there are no multiple thrusts in dual pulse. It's a common misconception.

What? I mean c'mon

 

[DDG-80]

Are you forgetting this?
View attachment 29696

Actually I was talking about PAF UAV fleet lacking all these sensors.

 

[Oscar]

It was not about just redundency, but lack of Erieye capabilies to work under LFE environment, which PAF was expecting. And I have severe doubt that Erieye capable to manage workload of more than two strike mission & interceptions.

Furthur, if turboprop AEW&C were as capable as turbofan one, then all be using it, because it is way cheaper to operate. But even when ERJ-145 underperfomed in service ceiling and endurance, leave alone an turboprop was accepted by IAF.

Bribes from Brazil

The agreement, a copy of which is with India Today, painstakingly details how Embraer paid $5.76 million in 2009 to an Indian arms agent identified in the document only as 'Agent D'.

www.indiatoday.in

And it wasnt like there were no spares, Phalcon was operating in same AO, but Phalcons have there own restrictions.

Now you’re plain shooting whimsical opinions rather than any actual plausible information - let’s agree to disagree.

Please return to the topic and @DDG-80

 

[vkdindian]

PFX in my opinion is the indigenisation of JF-17 with flexibility to change power-plant and sensors from Russian/Chinese to Turkish and European origin. Some structural changes might occur and IRST might be added.

That would itself be a challenging task but doable minus the engine.
At present PAF has achieved indigenisation of many components but still lacks the capability to carry out significant modifications and changes as seen in block 3 version of the project, without the Chinese help. What exactly is imported from China is also not available in the open domain. Making those components within the PAC, can pave the way for work towards developing own program.

PAF programs are mostly, maximum bang for the buck but developing own aircraft may be a costly affair. The current economy of Paksiatn may not be able to support it. Turkey and China may pitch in, but would they hand over knowhow of critical capabilities to save cost? That would be a big question.

 

[vkdindian]

How IAF is behind in all this?

Hi @kaku, My heart bleeds to accpet the fact that our AWACS, AEW and EW program has serious drawbacks. After the initial lot of Phalcons and Netra we didn’t get anything.
Phalcon’s had many theething issues of serviceability too.

Considering the area under surveillance, the numbers that we have is highly inadequate. Do we have adequate redundancy, if the available platforms have an issue? Th sad answer is -NO.

I hate to say this, but PAF has managed this much better. The number of aircraft they have outnumbers us by a big margin.

Platform to platform capability comparison is another aspect. But, what is the use of that if it is not in the air?
Moreover, 360degree coverage is great, but is it required in all scenarios? Just 200-240 degree may do the job in many theatres especially with Paksiatn considering linear nature of our borders.

Hope that this is addressed with new plan already in place.

 

[kaku]

Hi @kaku, My heart bleeds to accpet the fact that our AWACS, AEW and EW program has serious drawbacks. After the initial lot of Phalcons and Netra we didn’t get anything.

The EW systems that coming out from BEL (developed by DRDO) are world apart, and one of the best. For AEW, I mean if you check the amount of flight testing it took in Netra for developing ECM and ECCM is so high, and check what they have added, its one of the best.

And that actually helped us in Uttam radar, how fast it developed, and adding LPI ( and not just frequency hopping but developing ultra low side lobe).

Dont get mistaken, all OEMs claim LPI by just doing frequncy hopping. But true LPI's capability lie somewhere else.
The amount it takes to develop such things are beyond doubt is high, but we have already paid that.

Phalcon’s had many theething issues of serviceability too.

Thats why we dropped plans of buying more Phalcons, and want our own system, which actually become one of the best. Especially the 3rd Netra, there is no other word to describe it, but magic.

But all the khoon, paseena is worth now, after we induct Netra Mk2.

Considering the area under surveillance, the numbers that we have is highly inadequate. Do we have adequate redundancy, if the available platforms have an issue? Th sad answer is -NO.

In that sense, no one has, but only US. But also US have problems with E-3 now. Its always a game of cat and mouse, we are just a 3 trillion economy, expecting a country to operate 20-30 AEW&C is a big ask, but we will reach there.

We have to go beyond IOR too.

I hate to say this, but PAF has managed this much better. The number of aircraft they have outnumbers us by a big margin.

If this is the way we compare it, then USAF and USN is already in an inferior positions. But if you ask me, we are somewhat comparable to PAF, but after 6 Mk2, it be total game changer. And I dont think we going to stop just 6 numbers of Mk2. We go beyond.

Platform to platform capability comparison is another aspect. But, what is the use of that if it is not in the air?
Moreover, 360degree coverage is great, but is it required in all scenarios? Just 200-240 degree may do the job in many theatres especially with Paksiatn considering linear nature of our borders.

Hope that this is addressed with new plan already in place.

360 degree wasnt required at all, I am using harsh words, but IAF didnt knew what they need. Only in 2020, they came to there senses, and went with Netra Mk1A/Mk2.

 

[vkdindian]

The EW systems that coming out from BEL (developed by DRDO) are world apart,

I have no doubt about that.

My submission was that Indian project on AWACS and AEW wasn’t managed well. Netra may be highly capable, but isn’t in adequate numbers. We tried and got Phalcons in such limited numbers but at an exorbitant price.

On the contrary, Paksiatn got good numbers with decent capabilities that works for them.

Hopefully, Netra II would turn around things for us. Till then, we would remain handicapped.

 

[Yasser76]

This premise is so wrong, PAF till now havent done any high tempo exercises, since I think 2005, leave alone high tempo real life operations for long durations.

I dont know from where this "1 Erieye always in air" comes from, when they havent even tested it, or dont want to test it.


Phalcon was around Pathankot-Jammu sector at that time, at 30000 feet or so, and went beyound 40000 feet, after alearted by Netra (and Netra had to go back), to map the whole LEF, and manage the interceptions.



So, F-16 is 50 years old, does it make it useless? What type of argument is that.


You use your cheapest and high performance assets for performing BARCAPs in high tempo ops. If we have Rafale, that doesnt mean it be doing BARCAPs, it be by Tejas in future.


Mirage with RDY-3 and MICA is of almost similar capabilties.


Lol,okey.

Again, like many Indians, are you just hoping to post BS and hoping people just swallow it?

1) Since 2005 PAF has partcipated in approx 40 major domestic international exercises, this post of yours proves you know exactly nothing about the PAF.
2) PAF have a fleet of 10 Erieye and have been flying these for over 15 years, 10 enables a constant air presence, again, how can you be so ignorant?
3) Mica is outranged by PL-15 and AMRAAM. Thats pretty much a technical fact, now PAF have around 50 PL-15 equipped planes and around 75 AMRAAM equipped planes. JF-17C and J-10 numbers grow every year.

Please, at least try and gain some knowledge of facts before posting again

 

[Yasser76]

It was not about just redundency, but lack of Erieye capabilies to work under LFE environment, which PAF was expecting. And I have severe doubt that Erieye capable to manage workload of more than two strike mission & interceptions.

Furthur, if turboprop AEW&C were as capable as turbofan one, then all be using it, because it is way cheaper to operate. But even when ERJ-145 underperfomed in service ceiling and endurance, leave alone an turboprop was accepted by IAF.

Bribes from Brazil

The agreement, a copy of which is with India Today, painstakingly details how Embraer paid $5.76 million in 2009 to an Indian arms agent identified in the document only as 'Agent D'.

www.indiatoday.in

And it wasnt like there were no spares, Phalcon was operating in same AO, but Phalcons have there own restrictions.

You "have serious doubts", but PAF proved it on 2019. Guess who I believe

 

[kaku]

Again, like many Indians, are you just hoping to post BS and hoping people just swallow it?

1) Since 2005 PAF has partcipated in approx 40 major domestic international exercises, this post of yours proves you know exactly nothing about the PAF.
2) PAF have a fleet of 10 Erieye and have been flying these for over 15 years, 10 enables a constant air presence, again, how can you be so ignorant?
3) Mica is outranged by PL-15 and AMRAAM. Thats pretty much a technical fact, now PAF have around 50 PL-15 equipped planes and around 75 AMRAAM equipped planes. JF-17C and J-10 numbers grow every year.

Please, at least try and gain some knowledge of facts before posting again

Okey.

 

[Dalit]

I find it astonishing that in a country with over 40% illiteracy and people not being able to read 'halwa' in Arabic (the same language as their religion), there's so much development going on in advanced aerospace. Job well done. It's like Somalia developing a Mars mission (no offense to Somalia).

That is because literacy is only available to a select few. You and I will have to live with that fact.

 

[Dalit]

Even if it's keep JF 17 in production it would be a BLOCK 4 which would be basically a GRIPPEN E

Don’t underestimate block 3. When we look at the block 3 specifications it can match most advanced 4 and 4.5th gen fighters out there. Including Gripen E. Pakistan won’t be improving the block 3 an awful lot in my opinion.

 

[Dalit]

PAF will find it extremely difficult to strike our important communication lines & deep strike a no possibility. AD systems, especially MRSAM will be a deadly barrier for PAF to penetrate. Eventually it'll be war between men on ground

You are daydreaming buddy. You have no clue how Pakistan can strike India in broad daylight. This isn’t the Pakistan from 1950.