Who Created Harappan / Indus Valley Civilisation? | How Did It End? | Samvaad With Devdutt Pattanaik

[Aghor Warrior]

Hence the desperation of both southies AND northies to trace their lineage to Harappa, or even, among the most delusional - to declare some form of cultural or linguistic antecedence to all south asian civilisation. They want ancient Pakistanis to be their fathers but sadly, that role has already been filled by ancient Abrahamic beef eaters from Canaan.

India derives from and takes pride in its civilisation rooted in the Bihar province of India. The national emblem, the Ashoka Pillar, comes from Bihar; the Circle of Dharma, or Ashoka Chakra, on the Indian national flag also comes from Bihar. The motto of India, “Satyameva Jayate,” meaning “Truth Alone Triumphs,” comes from the Rig Veda.
Nalanda, regarded as the world’s earliest great centre of higher learning, is located in Bihar and remains an important part of India’s national pride and civilisational identity. The new Nalanda University, established as an international university for students from around the world, has also been built at Rajgir in Bihar, further reinforcing Nalanda’s place in India’s modern civilisational narrative.

All the ancient empires and the very concept of Akhand Bharat come from the boundaries of the Maurya Empire created by Chandragupta Maurya.

Indians do claim the Indus Valley Civilisation, much of which was in a region that is now part of Pakistan, but that is not central to Indian identity. Indians do not see Pakistan as the inheritor of the Indus Valley Civilisation because Pakistan accepted Islam and does not associate itself with the Indus Valley Civilisation. Most Pakistanis claim Arab ancestry.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Keep jumping from one point to another without answering the question made. I'm denying your inference from ‘there was Steppe influence’ to ‘therefore this particular later practice came from the Steppe.’ Those aren't equivalent claims.

Sanskrit literature developed in India, and it recorded copious amounts of cultural innovations that happened here.

There was no such that as India prior to 1947...

Let me fix this for you..


"Sanskrit literature developed in South Asia, and it recorded copious amounts of cultural innovations that happened here."

 

[r3alist]

Sanskrit literature developed in India

Modern day Pakistan.

If something comes from mesopotamia do you say that, or modern day Iraq.


If you deny basic geography no wonder this goes nowhere.


Just because there are some broad stroke similarities it's all Hindu it's for Hindus blah......


Your ancestors did not know ivc existed, let alone went to the place, let that sink in

At least those who had physical roots there have that claim

 

[Master Chief]

"Now". No it isn't. The issue is cow meat consumption gradually declined and prohibited. It didn't happen because of some religious switching. It came as a natural progression of society.

Kerala and NE have heavy foreign influence although Cattle slaughter was banned in Kerala the rules were later relaxed to accomodate foreign cultures.

So eating cow meat is an original characteristic of the folk who dwelled in this land as per your first sentence above. You then contradict YOURSELF by claiming it is "foreign".

Again, the point you fail to respond to because "this isn't about Islam saar!" remains your cope cage, is that RSS fanatics have no basis on which to declare beef consumption as "foreign".

You have repeatedly agreed with this RSS claim - thoroughly disproved by archaeological realities.

Why then should anyone tolerate such simple hypocrisy? You yourself cannot make your mind up if cow consumption is a native or foreign cultural trait.

 

[Master Chief]

Harappans are Iranian origin. But Iranians aren't really Iranian in origin because their ancestors came from somewhere in western eurasian region, but they are also not native to Western eurasia because their ancestors came from Africa. We can go all the way to blue whales by your logic.

Iranians created the settled civilisation in coterminous south Asia though, which AASI and/or andamanese derived individuals did not.

You have commandeered Iranians as your supposed fathers - fair enough, there is genetic basis for such a claim for part of the Indian population. But then the political nonsense about "people here are India origin!" needs to stop. We know why you can't stop this nativism obsession.

 

[Master Chief]

Keep jumping from one point to another without answering the question made. I'm denying your inference from ‘there was Steppe influence’ to ‘therefore this particular later practice came from the Steppe.’ Those aren't equivalent claims.

Sanskrit literature developed in India, and it recorded copious amounts of cultural innovations that happened here.

No jumping at all. All available indicators - archaeological, dietary, genomic, linguistic, religious, caste determination - point to the underlying universal truth about the origins of Indians and Pakistanis ( and Bangladeshis btw).

Our forefathers came to this land and brought their baggage with them, be it cultural, linguistic, religious.

You think local cultural modifiers have had no effect on islam?? There is plenty of jurisprudence and locally derived scholasticism that have influenced the practice of Islam, let alone Hinduism.

Simply put there is no "nativist" case that can be made on behalf of vedic beliefs in opposition to Islamic beliefs. It is a cleverly deployed ruse, a sleight of hand to inherently acquire favour for one group over the other.

You're going to need a better argument than "vedism is native but Islam is not" if you wish to declare ANY Islamic practices as "unwelcome".

 

[Master Chief]

India derives from and takes pride in its civilisation rooted in the Bihar province of India. The national emblem, the Ashoka Pillar, comes from Bihar; the Circle of Dharma, or Ashoka Chakra, on the Indian national flag also comes from Bihar. The motto of India, “Satyameva Jayate,” meaning “Truth Alone Triumphs,” comes from the Rig Veda.
Nalanda, regarded as the world’s earliest great centre of higher learning, is located in Bihar and remains an important part of India’s national pride and civilisational identity. The new Nalanda University, established as an international university for students from around the world, has also been built at Rajgir in Bihar, further reinforcing Nalanda’s place in India’s modern civilisational narrative.

All the ancient empires and the very concept of Akhand Bharat come from the boundaries of the Maurya Empire created by Chandragupta Maurya.

Indians do claim the Indus Valley Civilisation, much of which was in a region that is now part of Pakistan, but that is not central to Indian identity. Indians do not see Pakistan as the inheritor of the Indus Valley Civilisation because Pakistan accepted Islam and does not associate itself with the Indus Valley Civilisation. Most Pakistanis claim Arab ancestry.

"Arab ancestry"?? What nonsense you regurgitate in WhatsApp university is not my concern.

Meanwhile, you (northie?) have actual Ukrainian ancestry, which the Harappans did not. Feel free to refer to Shinde's seminal work on this matter if you remain uncertain.

You accepted Vedism, which is rooted in foreign beliefs and a foreign derived lingua sacra that are contrary to those practiced by the first settled civilisation of this land.

We can talk about Ashoka another day. He came well after the Harappans and did plenty of harm to Buddhists. Do keep idolising him though. It is par for the course for your kind.

 

[Master Chief]

Modern day Pakistan.

Very good point!

Even the refined version of Sanskrit that @Vikramaditya1 crutches himself with is not of gangetic derivation.

The claims of sanata dharma are ludicrously deluded.

 

[r3alist]

Very good point!

Even the refined version of Sanskrit that @Vikramaditya1 crutches himself with is not of gangetic derivation.

The claims of sanata dharma are ludicrously deluded.

On the one hand you have to hear that heritage denied, on the other you start to look at the ground you live on and it turns out that heritage they claimed is probably mostly modern day Pak and...... It's amongst these far away people's prized historical claims

 

[Master Chief]

On the one hand you have to hear that heritage denied, on the other you start to look at the ground you live on and it turns out that heritage they claimed is probably mostly modern day Pak and...... It's amongst these far away people's prized historical claims

In the fullness of time, as more and more damming genetic evidence mounts, even the hordes they have deployed in all four corners of the world wide web, even with unlimited AI support, they cannot overturn the irrefutable evidence that has been compiled in front of their eyes.

Even the more reasonable Indian geneticists, despite having to navigate a maelstrom of uninformed and dogmatic domestic jingoism, have started making peace with the realities of what actually constitutes "Indianness" and subtly try to course correct the detritus that blows over this subject from distant and academically sheltered gangetic realms.

One of the links I posted earlier https://helixline.in/ is Indian, would you believe it!? Have a browse and notice how they cautiously approach the subject of caste specific genetic realities and the truth about India's genomic derivation. They exercise caution because they know whom they are negotiating with.

It would actually be nice to have this discourse with such more educated Indians.

Yet the crowd we attract here still curse us for: "given up south Asian lineage and accepted Arabian lineage saar!".

 

[Vikramaditya1]

So eating cow meat is an original characteristic of the folk who dwelled in this land as per your first sentence above. You then contradict YOURSELF by claiming it is "foreign".

Again, the point you fail to respond to because "this isn't about Islam saar!" remains your cope cage, is that RSS fanatics have no basis on which to declare beef consumption as "foreign".

You have repeatedly agreed with this RSS claim - thoroughly disproved by archaeological realities.

Why then should anyone tolerate such simple hypocrisy? You yourself cannot make your mind up if cow consumption is a native or foreign cultural trait.

Where did I claim it is foreign? Or brought by Muslims? When we talk about ancient India you inserted Islam in it and beef consumption as if it's a main point of contention.
Beef consumption was banned even when Indian constitution was written but allowed states to form their own rules and regulations. Definitely not some RSS conspiracy. I have no doubts regarding cow meat consumption it was banned for the longest time.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Iranians created the settled civilisation in coterminous south Asia though, which AASI and/or andamanese derived individuals did not.

You have commandeered Iranians as your supposed fathers - fair enough, there is genetic basis for such a claim for part of the Indian population. But then the political nonsense about "people here are India origin!" needs to stop. We know why you can't stop this nativism obsession.

But they are not Iranians, they are descendants of Africans who migrated out of Africa to Eurasia. Try disproving that.

 

[Master Chief]

But they are not Iranians, they are descendants of Africans who migrated out of Africa to Eurasia. Try disproving that.

A bizarre and self-defeating line of argument. Why would I try to disprove a claim that puts you yourself in the same "African immigrant" bracket?

You're still left with the same problem that vedic hindus are also not "native" to the region of South Asia, so banning beef consumption (or rejecting ANY Islamically derived practice) on the basis of it being "foreign behaviour" becomes even more laughable than it is now. Is there any actual scientific or historical merit to banning beef for Indian muslims? Vedism ITSELF did not immediately ban beef consumption - you would know better than me!

So feel free to have this cake and eat it.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

No jumping at all. All available indicators - archaeological, dietary, genomic, linguistic, religious, caste determination - point to the underlying universal truth about the origins of Indians and Pakistanis ( and Bangladeshis btw).

Our forefathers came to this land and brought their baggage with them, be it cultural, linguistic, religious.

You think local cultural modifiers have had no effect on islam?? There is plenty of jurisprudence and locally derived scholasticism that have influenced the practice of Islam, let alone Hinduism.

Simply put there is no "nativist" case that can be made on behalf of vedic beliefs in opposition to Islamic beliefs. It is a cleverly deployed ruse, a sleight of hand to inherently acquire favour for one group over the other.

You're going to need a better argument than "vedism is native but Islam is not" if you wish to declare ANY Islamic practices as "unwelcome".

Again you're insertion Islam unnecessarily. Fine then, it's straight forward Semitic culture, just like Judaism is Semitic and by the people of Levant, Christianity by Jesus a Jewish man from the tribe of Judah. Are you going say oh these cultures are not native to Levant or Arabean peninsula. But brought by Zagros people? And arguing to death for Zagros as soneone who brought those "foreign cultures".

Similarly Vedism-Hinduism/Buddhism/Sikhism/Jainism are native to India they are called Indic cultures afterall. Not AASI, Steppe Aryan R1a admixed IVC AASI Zagros culture which it is afterall. Like Judaism is x, y, z yada yada yada DNA admixed peoples culture.

Or take a different contrast, say a Hindu of Russian origin or a Hindu of African origin, Balinese Hindu, a Khmer Buddhist. Do they not know their culture is Indic? They do. You're somehow irked by the idea that an Indian calls his religion native and you straight dive into DNA and genetics to prove its "not native". I say Nice try.

 

[Master Chief]

Where did I claim it is foreign? Or brought by Muslims?

"No it isn't. The issue is cow meat consumption gradually declined and prohibited. It didn't happen because of some religious switching. It came as a natural progression of society.

Kerala and NE have heavy foreign influence although Cattle slaughter was banned in Kerala the rules were later relaxed to accomodate foreign cultures."

In your last paragraph you have directly inferred the "foreignness" of cow consumption. A foreign trait to be tolerated in the case of Keralans and NE folk. Apparently, this foreign train cannot be tolerated for Indian muslims.

Make your mind up. In some posts, you claim beef consumption is a native cultural phenomenon (which I agree with, insofar as both Harappans and early Vedic Hindus can reasonably be described as "native" in this context). If you accept this position, then how can it arise from the influence of foreigners at the same time?

If it is a purely foreign cultural trait, then who are you or Keralans or NE folk to pick and choose when foreign traits are acceptable and when they are not? Indian muslims are not some refugees in your land. Yet you seem to treat them as such.

Thank you Jinnah. A million times over.