PAF Future Acquisition Plans

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Shame does not win wars. Weapons do.

And Chinese doing by themselves you're doing with help of west, its major drawbacks for IAF in war scenarios that IAF relying too much on foreign tech

 

[ety]

Nobody gives their top tier weaponry to anyone let alone pakistan and you wont be getting top of the line quipment for free. And j20 is top tier j10 is 4th gen j31 is less advance export variant 5th gen.
If you were getting j20 then it would have been top tier common sense.

J20 is the exception, J-10C and J-31 are not second tier though.

 

[Zarvan]

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The next step after J35s will be J20s for PAF.

It would be J-31 and KAAN. I highly doubt it would ever be J-20.

 

[Zarvan]

They are not second tier. China itself wants to induct J-35. That is why they have speeded up the project.

Nobody gives their top tier weaponry to anyone let alone pakistan and you wont be getting top of the line quipment for free. And j20 is top tier j10 is 4th gen j31 is less advance export variant 5th gen.
If you were getting j20 then it would have been top tier common sense.

 

[Vox Non Dei]

J-31 latest prototype is flying with WS 10 C engine not RD 93. Secondly soon it would be equipped with WS19 engine which is being made for J-31. Finally, the moment we place order you would run to either Russia or USA to get 5th Generation Jets.

Well, let China certify WS-19 and then we can discuss. Even then, given Pakistan is likely to be the only major customer and even China is not going to induct J-31 in numbers, I doubt we will ever know the reality. With Pakistan, unfortunately, its more of a compulsion now.

That being said, I have my doubts that "one or two years" timeline that some posts were mentioning.

 

[UserUsing]

Pakistan has 2 fifth gen aircrafts coming within this decade? How?
I'm not even sure about one! Who pays for it and how? Don't we have J10Cs on order? JF block 3s on order? JF block 2s in upgradation?

How come there are sooo many acquisitions within a few next years? Hows the financing going to work keeping in mind that the lumber 1 has already screwed up the country and economy!

 

[Nilgiri]

Fair, but at this point, I think there'd be more confidence in China's ability to manufacture capable (albeit shorter-life) engines at scale compared to Russia. We're already seeing that edge in China's ability to design, develop, and manufacture stealth fighters, defence electronics, guided munitions, etc. So, yes, there might be a gap in some areas of their engines, but as a whole, their next-gen fighter stack is probably a credible solution, more so than Russia's.

Hey Quwa bro, good to see you here.

I forgot if you read my post elsewhere on engine MRO regd MTBO (comparing zorya to GE).

MTBO is a statistical number (from integrals and normal distributions) that takes more unpacking to understand

So if one engine has a lower MTBO than another one, there is a distribution of problems/issues that also shift to the left when plotted against time.... (things that make the MTBO a normal distribution in first place.)

All things that are not captured well by the MTBO (mu) raw number comparison

These all play role and affect reliability, safety and transient downtime....i.e operating costs and larger costs.

There's no real way to tell where the Chinese are on all this relative to Russians till there's much larger scaled operation of their engines by 3rd parties to feedback into comparisons like have been done between Russian and Western. The time of operation needed for this to filter through when we are talking about the cutting edge apex today.

The RnD+ QC of the other things you mention dont have the same level of this effect (they are not many complex things in extended essentially multiplied series each with a efficiency and reliability factor of 0<Xn<1 and getting much smaller final Xt number etc)

Its also why the Chinese have commensurately improved upon those far faster than in the jet engine field....the tree (roots, trunk, branches, stems, leaves) so to speak is much more appreciable here. Bearings alone are a big topic just by themselves. Its not just material science in the end.

 

[spammmmer]

They are not second tier. China itself wants to induct J-35. That is why they have speeded up the project.

Its ok if you want to believe so.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

J-31 latest prototype is flying with WS 10 C engine not RD 93. Secondly soon it would be equipped with WS19 engine which is being made for J-31. Finally, the moment we place order you would run to either Russia or USA to get 5th Generation Jets.

No sir it's not flying with WS-10 which high thrust class engine, j31/J35 is medium weight jet but with WS-10 it become heavy jet, so most probably j31/J35 is using either WS-13 or RD-93 medium class engine and WS-19 will be medium class engine similar to GE F414 (thrust = 22000 lbs or more)

 

[Vox Non Dei]

Nozzle - attached to the engine - the first of that type actually flew on a F-100 testbed the F-16 LOAN - does that mean the F-100 is a stealth engine?

Well, during development, we do use testbeds and hacks but then you do not use testbeds in war now, do you? Testbeds are for that purpose only: Testing specific parameters.

Let me take your analogy further. Jet engines and even radars use testbeds, sometimes based on commercial jet airframes to test new engines or radars. But that does not make testbed a radar platform or a fighter jet. Its purpose is only to test the specific product or part of it in this case.

So yes, that nozzel (which I believe is very much a part of a stealth engine) gives IR stealth. The fact it was tested on a different platform does not negate it.

That leaves PTMS - which in essence while a component of the F-35 is also a component of the Engine because as it surrounds the F-135 it also does so for other parts around it. Hence, its part of the overall structure of the F-35. We have no idea on what (if any) thermal management is going into the J-31 but if the J-10 is some indication there are considerations for it. That doesn't necessarily make the F-135 the "stealth" aspect but the overall consideration of it along with the airframe.

F-35 and its engine were co-developed IIRC. As such, engine, plane and thermal management system are tightly integrated. The test that I use here is: Can you replace F135 with another engine and still take advantage of thermal management system? I highly doubt it.

 

[MastanKhan]

Just like the PAF waited for the J-10 to mature until it met the PAF’s requirements, Indeed the PAF really should wait till the J-31/35 meets performance requirements to be worth acquiring. In the meantime modernization of the JF-17 fleet and acquisition of more PL-15s and PL-10s will go a long way in achieving some level of technological edge over the bulk of the IAF fleet.

Hi,

On the contrary---the J10C was ready.

The real surprise was for the Paf to find out its capabilities---.

 

[Zarvan]

No sir it's not flying with WS-10 which high thrust class engine, j31/J35 is medium weight jet but with WS-10 it become heavy jet, so most probably j31/J35 is using either WS-13 or RD-93 medium class engine and WS-19 will be medium class engine similar to GE F414 (thrust = 22000 lbs or more)

Latest prototype is flying with WS-10 or WS-13 engine not RD 93. Russian engine is not there in J-31 anymore.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Latest prototype is flying with WS-10 or WS-13 engine not RD 93. Russian engine is not there in J-31 anymore.

Most probably with WS-13 but not WS-10 with 2 high thrust engines j31/J35 is become heavy weight jet but J35/J-31 is not heavy weight jet but medium weight jet

 

[Sparten]

F31. Awesome.

I think I mentioned it in an earlier post on the DxB Air Show 2023 Topic [PDF 1.0) that I had spoken to a CATIC Representatives.

According to him, CATIC had been aggressively pitching the J-35 exclusively to the PAF, however, PAF had been insisting on the J-20.

Now lets all be realistic... We all know that a J-20 induction would be a bit far fetched, 'cause we just can't afford that. That being said, the J-35 ain't gonna be cheaper that the J-10 either. So to hear that we're going to be inducting the J-35 is news to me.

@Deino

CATIC is not going to share everything with (respectfully) some rando at an airshow.

 

[Sparten]

So, if Pakistan is the first & only customer - our wait may be sooner than most F-16 Block 70/72 customers.

Why would we want Block 70/72, when we have J10CE and Thunder Charlies, both of which match and in someways exceed the Block 70/72?

As for TAI's KAAN. It still hasn't had its First Test Flight (yet). Currently, they're using F-16 Engines as a testbed. They're years away & we still have rust buckets like F-7 & Mirages to replace.

J10CE will replace the F7PG in the AD role (supplemented by F16 and Blk 1 Thunders). I wouldn't be surprised to see the Mirage fleet reach 2040 frankly. They are very good a the strike role and their ability to carry standoff and dart in very fast is going to remain useful.