Sea Sultan Long-Range MPA | Updates & Discussion

[Ak01]

Did nobody notice the procurement of a 4th airframe for conversion?

Delivered to South Africa.



Total is 4 airframes now. 2 being converted, 1 used as a trainer, 1 awaiting conversion.

 

[Ak01]

Embrarer can do this paint scheme.

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Navy should consider changing color scheme for Sultan to "Grey" or "black". The current scheme looks more like commercial plane

I think 8-10 , Flying Sultans were planed for modernized recon over the sea, which was a decent number of planes considering vastness of
Pakistan's Sea , shared with Gulf of Arabian-Iranian sea route

The scheme you see is not the one that will stay.

They will require a special coating due to the salinity of the water.

This AC is used as a trainer. No point in spending hundreds of thousands on a new paint scheme. When its converted, it will get its new paint.

 

[Ali_Baba]

If we are at the 4th airframe, then the first airframe must be very close to completion then. Looking forward to seeing it soon.

I wonder(hope!) if the Lineage 1000 could be used as the basis of a Pakistani designed/developed AEW&C in the future. Would make a lot of sense of a cost control/logistics perspective ( though the individual arms have never collaborated that much on development projects before! ).

The alternative of course is a platform based on the Global Bmbardier 6000 to have commonality with the HAVASOJ programme.

 

[Yasser76]

If we are at the 4th airframe, then the first airframe must be very close to completion then. Looking forward to seeing it soon.

I wonder(hope!) if the Lineage 1000 could be used as the basis of a Pakistani designed/developed AEW&C in the future. Would make a lot of sense of a cost control/logistics perspective ( though the individual arms have never collaborated that much on development projects before! ).

The alternative of course is a platform based on the Global Bmbardier 6000 to have commonality with the HAVASOJ programme.

Yeah, PN, PA and PAF are nit great at joint acqusitions and getting better deals for economies of scale,

Case in point was CN-235s and ATR-72s. Granted the CN-235 has a rear door something the ATR does not have. PN probably went for ATR as PIA also use them so that made sense, PAF probably needed a plane with rear ramp, but anyhow both basically same size and performance.

Likewise with helicopters, between all three armed forces we must operate around 12-14 types! US Armed forces probably around 7-8 with Army, USAF and USN operating many similar types. Last time our forces did this was when we bought Aloutte 3 from France.

Business jets/EW/MPR/AWACs is even worse. Bombadier, Citiation, Gulfstream, Linage, ATR, SAAB 2000, Falcon 20. We coud easily get this down to just two types

 

[Ak01]

If we are at the 4th airframe, then the first airframe must be very close to completion then. Looking forward to seeing it soon.

I wonder(hope!) if the Lineage 1000 could be used as the basis of a Pakistani designed/developed AEW&C in the future. Would make a lot of sense of a cost control/logistics perspective ( though the individual arms have never collaborated that much on development projects before! ).

The alternative of course is a platform based on the Global Bmbardier 6000 to have commonality with the HAVASOJ programme.

there are not many Lineage 1000E's out there.

PAF i believe will standardize on the global platform.

 

[Yasser76]

there are not many Lineage 1000E's out there.

PAF i believe will standardize on the global platform.

That would be good. Imagine if we had (long term) 10 Global AEW, 5 Global SOJ EW, 3 Global VIP

Suddenly you create a big pool of pilots, it makes sense to then set up deep overhaul facilities and you have 3 VIP airframes you can convert to cover losses

 

[Quwa]

there are not many Lineage 1000E's out there.

PAF i believe will standardize on the global platform.

PN can use the E190 too, the underlying platform of the Lineage 1000E.

The Lineage 1000E, I believe, uses the lower deck cargo area for additional fuel tanks. This can be added to the standard E190 as part of the conversion process (which involves so many other things anyways).

One other thing is that Embraer is also now producing a variant of the E190-E2 for special mission applications. So, I'm guessing, this would be a variant without the airliner stuff and, otherwise, pretty much ready for modification work.

 

[Great Mal]

Inshallah Sea Sultan will & can become the standard for what Pakistan can achieve if they choose their options wisely.

The Pakistan air force should follow a similar model & replicate for their future AEW&C platforms, they are near baptism with their Turkish EW aircraft order (yet to see progress)

The rest is yet to be seen. Hopefully all goes well.

 

[Fatman17]

Yeah, PN, PA and PAF are nit great at joint acqusitions and getting better deals for economies of scale,

Case in point was CN-235s and ATR-72s. Granted the CN-235 has a rear door something the ATR does not have. PN probably went for ATR as PIA also use them so that made sense, PAF probably needed a plane with rear ramp, but anyhow both basically same size and performance.

Likewise with helicopters, between all three armed forces we must operate around 12-14 types! US Armed forces probably around 7-8 with Army, USAF and USN operating many similar types. Last time our forces did this was when we bought Aloutte 3 from France.

Business jets/EW/MPR/AWACs is even worse. Bombadier, Citiation, Gulfstream, Linage, ATR, SAAB 2000, Falcon 20. We coud easily get this down to just two types

Fair analysis but at the end of the day availability, cost and purpose play a big role. Each arms requirements are different.

 

[Yasser76]

Fair analysis but at the end of the day availability, cost and purpose play a big role. Each arms requirements are different.

Yeah, of course, issue is maybe in some cases we can cut back on certain smaller requirements in order to get standardisation.

PAF did a great job with SAAB 2000. 9-10 Erieyes and 5 basic versions for light transport.

Means we spare AEW airframes for operations and train pilots on the basic versions and we have airframes ready for AEW conversion if need be.

After Kamra attack we rebuilt one completely and even SAAB certified it as perfect afterwards.

Similar case with C-130, at Chaklala we can take a C-130 completely apart and rebuild it from scratch adding new parts where required.

We need to be able to be in this position with all major assets, but this is only feasible if we have numbers.

PN on the way there with ATR. 4 MPA version and 2 basic version. Also Karachi airport is only 20 min drive/ 2 minute flight from PN Mehran base and this is where PIA Engineering and Maintence is based for ATRs. If you look at Google Maps it seems Sea Sultan and P-3Cs have been removed from PN Mehran and ATRs now based there.

Maybe it would have been better getting A320 airframe for Sea Sultan? PIA operate 17 of these and Air Blue about 12

 

[Fatman17]

Yeah, of course, issue is maybe in some cases we can cut back on certain smaller requirements in order to get standardisation.

PAF did a great job with SAAB 2000. 9-10 Erieyes and 5 basic versions for light transport.

Means we spare AEW airframes for operations and train pilots on the basic versions and we have airframes ready for AEW conversion if need be.

After Kamra attack we rebuilt one completely and even SAAB certified it as perfect afterwards.

Similar case with C-130, at Chaklala we can take a C-130 completely apart and rebuild it from scratch adding new parts where required.

We need to be able to be in this position with all major assets, but this is only feasible if we have numbers.

PN on the way there with ATR. 4 MPA version and 2 basic version. Also Karachi airport is only 20 min drive/ 2 minute flight from PN Mehran base and this is where PIA Engineering and Maintence is based for ATRs. If you look at Google Maps it seems Sea Sultan and P-3Cs have been removed from PN Mehran and ATRs now based there.

Maybe it would have been better getting A320 airframe for Sea Sultan? PIA operate 17 of these and Air Blue about 12

P3Cs are based in Balochistan new naval station - pasni perhaps.

 

[Fatman17]

SAR is a area where army navy and airforce can create standardisation with helicopters and repair and maintenance.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Fair analysis but at the end of the day availability, cost and purpose play a big role. Each arms requirements are different.

The question if the requirements are "soo" different that they require a different platform versus the cost benefit of standardisation.

 

[Fatman17]

The question if the requirements are "soo" different that they require a different platform versus the cost benefit of standardisation.

Inter-Services politics.

 

[Yasser76]

The question if the requirements are "soo" different that they require a different platform versus the cost benefit of standardisation.

Exactly. CN-235 and ATR-72 very similar, but if rear ramp is a fundamental requirement then one can understand why PAF went down that route, would have made sense then for PN ti sump on the back of Turkish CN-235 MPA model but then they would not get benefits of PIA ATR mainetence at Karachi.

I think moving forward even PIA arcraft acquisition should at least take some armed forces requirements into account.

For example is it worth PIA looking into Embraer and COMAC short haul airliners when replacing A320s?