JF-17 PFX program

[Corax]

J-10 is not meant for long range mission kindly read posts before responding.

How do you know it's not meant for long range missions? If it wasn't, it wouldn't need an aerial refueling probe. Use that gap between your ears before replying to me.

 

[Quwa]

I think SMASH and P282 are same. I could be wrong, but I will give you my reasoning for believing so. As far as PN CNS calling p282 as hypersonic, our military people sometimes use High-supersonic / hypersonic terms loosely. High supersonic is anything above Mach-2. Hypersonic is above mach 5. Just recently, AVM Aurangzeb told in presser during conflict that we have capability to stop hypersonic missiles. I am sure, he wanted to say High-supersonic (like Brahmos is high supersonic.). But anyways, let me tell you other reasons why both SMASH and P282 are same.

We were hearing for quite sometime (many yrs) that PN is building this missile P282 which will be used as main land attack / Ashm. Even heard for its storage facility. Now the name P282, definitely seems to be as an internal project name. Then we saw PN doing a test firing of a new missile it has developed, which they called SMASH. So it appears to me P282 was internal project name and SMASH is its proper name. Interestingly, PN didn't tested this missile from a land based launcher but actually integrated into Zulfiqar class frigate and fired from it. So another important point comes to mind, that if PN is developing a more advance hypersonic missile then why it built a less powerful missile and decided to equip warships first with SMASH missiles. Its not like we have lot of warships OR if every warship can carry 16+ missiles so we decided to have a hi-low mix of missiles. We have limited warships that can carry only 4 to 8 missiles max. It only makes sense to equip warships with your best Antiship missiles. It don't really make sense to first get into development cycle and produce a supersonic ASBM and equip warships with it and then after a small duration (few yrs) replace it with another.

So, it seems to me that P282 is infact SMASH. In addition, most of publications also considers these as same:

View attachment 135821

Lastly, I will be glad to be wrong on this one. As hypersonic would really be one super lethal arsenal.

This is definitely plausible. I just want to pushback by saying that older (pre-SMASH test) conversations with PN folks gave us the sense that SMASH and P282 were in fact different projects (one hypersonic and the other supersonic).

In fact, we heard about 'SMASH' at the same time as P282, but were unsure if it'd be a ballistic missile (which became the case) or a supersonic-cruising platform (license-built CM-302).

How much P282 affected by recent US sanctions on Pakistani and Chinese firms involved in Pakistan's BM program supply chain and development.

IIRC the sanctions were already bad enough to affect our programs before the recent wave. However, NESCOM got over them. I think the recent wave was targeted at our SLV initiative, which was misconstrued as ICBM work.

 

[Scorpio]

The reason is that Pakistan need a single engine long range, load carrying fighter jet which many fan boys dont understand, and as PAF is familiar with JFT it next upgrade to medium category is what I posted about as PFX could be radically new bird.

Further Lockheed was not stupid that they completely revamped F-16 in F-16XL

Did F16XL actually see service.. no
That never see production line...

So there are reasons .. for which they prefer too continue with actual F16 till date..

Regarding improvement in PFX, totally agreed.. its the time we can add more engine power and range in this jet ...
For future medium role fighter .... If we can do it and afford it

 

[Rebirth]

How do you know it's not meant for long range missions? If it wasn't, it wouldn't need an aerial refueling probe. Use that gap between your ears before replying to me.

Kindly google it if you are new to this, it was never meant for that role even F-16s were not meant for that role that is why F-16XL concept was born to compete what become F-15E Strike Eagle.

 

[Corax]

Kindly google it if you are new to this, it was never meant for that role even F-16s were not meant for that role that is why F-16XL concept was born to compete what become F-15E Strike Eagle.

And yet the Israelis are using Block 50/52s to strike Iran...you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Rebirth]

Did F16XL actually see service.. no
That never see production line...

So there are reasons .. for which they prefer too continue with actual F16 till date..

Regarding improvement in PFX, totally agreed.. its the time we can add more engine power and range in this jet ...
For future medium role fighter .... If we can do it and afford it

The only reason it never see service because USAF could afford and prefer twin engine fighter, for countries like Pakistan it would have fulfilled that role.

There were several innovative birds which were not built due to political or cost reasons, that includes YF-23- Black Widow which was better in term of tech from YF-22.

 

[Rebirth]

And yet the Israelis are using Block 50/52s to strike Iran...you have no clue what you're talking about.

Do you even know the concept of long range birds??

Israel is using F-15s and F-35s, their F-16 needs conformal fuel tanks to extend range which in case of F-16XL never required.

Quote

In summary, the F-16XL had a considerably longer range than the F-16 Block 52, primarily due to its larger internal fuel capacity enabled by its unique airframe design. While the F-16 Block 52 is a highly capable multirole fighter, the F-16XL was specifically designed to excel in range and payload.

Unquote

 

[Scorpio]

The only reason it never see service because USAF could afford and prefer twin engine fighter, for countries like Pakistan it would have fulfilled that role.

There were several innovative birds which were not built due to political or cost reasons, that includes YF-23- Black Widow which was better in term of tech from YF-22.

Agree with above point , but additionally that other major point that is cost...

F16XL is totally new jet need additional infrastructure cost where as F15 was already in service and adaptation of F15E allow to use exiting infrastructure as it is same jet with improvement ..

So cost metters in these metters even for Americans... We on other hand had limited funds.. cant afford to buy f16 few years back .. now even thanks to Chinese soft loan condition we have j10c and other stuff

 

[Rebirth]

Agree with above point , but additionally that other major point that is cost...

F16XL is totally new jet need additional infrastructure cost where as F15 was already in service and adaptation of F15E allow to use exiting infrastructure as it is same jet with improvement ..

So cost metters in these metters even for Americans... We on other hand had limited funds.. cant afford to buy f16 few years back .. now even thanks to Chinese soft loan condition we have j10c and other stuff

Of USAF had adopted F-16XL it would have been cheaper then F-15Es in overall life cycle cost.

The thing is that in evolving geopolitical situation PAF is in need of its own 4+++ gen long range single engine bird, which no one can offer, even USAF is going for F-15EX (weapons truck) to complement its 5th gen birds, its the need of time to invest that kind of bird, one should remember we can not hit Israel if attacked by them with India, that is why some investments are needed to be done.

 

[Scorpio]

Of USAF had adopted F-16XL it would have been cheaper then F-15Es in overall life cycle cost.

The thing is that in evolving geopolitical situation PAF is in need of its own 4+++ gen long range single engine bird, which no one can offer, even USAF is going for F-15EX (weapons truck) to complement its 5th gen birds, its the need of time to invest that kind of bird, one should remember we can not hit Israel if attacked by them with India, that is why some investments are needed to be done.

Agree we do need long range birds.. bomb truck are required for which we are still keeping old mirages alive (off course they not bomb truck.. but can be call bomb mini vans )....

They need to be replaced in coming years ... That way Pakistan is eyeing on KAAN .. heavy dual engine 5th ...

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Did you ppl even read post before what I posted about?? JFT-XL of built will be as different as F-16XL was from in service F-16s.

The moment you change an aircrafts engine to another class, it essentially has to be completely re-designed around this new engine and de-facto becomes like developing a new jet from scratch rather than a simple modification. You mentioned WS-10 engines (used on J-10) as well as other changes. It's too many structural changes it's no longer a JFT.

In my opinion building a new 4th generation fighter from scratch is a waste of money. Single engines like J-10/JF-17 already exist, and effectively do the same thing pretty much at a more cost effective price.

Focus should be on subsystems indigenization and manufacturing indigenization. Future UCAV projects, expendable drones and possibly 5th generation platforms are better investments.

Ask AI about this

 

[Scorpio]

The moment you change an aircrafts engine to another class, it essentially has to be completely re-designed around this new engine and de-facto becomes like developing a new jet from scratch rather than a simple modification. You mentioned WS-10 engines (used on J-10) as well as other changes. It's too many structural changes it's no longer a JFT.

In my opinion building a new 4th generation fighter from scratch is a waste of money. Single engines like J-10/JF-17 already exist, and effectively do the same thing pretty much at a more cost effective price.

Focus should be on subsystems indigenization and manufacturing indigenization. Future UCAV projects, expendable drones and possibly 5th generation platforms are better investments.

Ask AI about this

PAF can found something similar to RD-93 size and DNA like WS-21 which will boost new blocks of JFT even suit future induction of J35A ..

Common engine in multiple platform are always cost effective for maintenance.... Even can habe ToT of overhaul.. .. like mirages..

 

[Rebirth]

Agree we do need long range birds.. bomb truck are required for which we are still keeping old mirages alive (off course they not bomb truck.. but can be call bomb mini vans )....

They need to be replaced in coming years ... That way Pakistan is eyeing on KAAN .. heavy dual engine 5th ...

The thing is in future wars 5th gen will not be weapon trucks that is why even US is going for F-15EX and B-1B upgrade, our mirages dont have range what will be required in future, we need a bird which can go over Indian ocean and keep CAP there also to launch long range strikes inside Israel if worst situation happens, a coverage of 3500km from Pakistani borders is needed now by PAF, a long range bird with Standoff weapons will be very good to have.

 

[Sparten]

On this note, I can see the PAF exploring an ALBM variant of the P282. Basically, the P282 is likely the base platform for hypersonic BMs for land, naval, and air deployment. So, an ALBM variant of P282 could be of interest as a follow-on to the CM-400 AKG.

Can't Abdali work? It would provide approimatley the same capability as a Kinzhal. And J10C could certainlycarry it. Its about 4000Kg.

 

[Scorpio]

The thing is in future wars 5th gen will not be weapon trucks that is why even US is going for F-15EX and B-1B upgrade, our mirages dont have range what will be required in future, we need a bird which can go over Indian ocean and keep CAP there also to launch long range strikes inside Israel if worst situation happens, a coverage of 3500km from Pakistani borders is needed now by PAF, a long range bird with Standoff weapons will be very good to have.

PAF earlier doctrine was defensive.. specially based on Indian... For India mirages are good enough (they over served there life ... Served very well)..

If PAF really want to adopt offensive approach... Specially capacity of longer range above India of borders as well..

Then they definitely need to adopted limited 4.5 gen good bomb trucks .. but cost matters alot for purchase and maintenance..

But mostly bomb truck are dual engine.. which have high running cost ..

If PAF want them in actual for future .. some day .. then there's numbers will not more them 2 sqr around 36 to 40 ..

For that most suitable option will going for J16 (which not available for export) SU35 not suitable as not will available on loan and dependency on Russian.. F15 can't afford and restrictions attached.. Only option left is J15 used or new for now, or get Russian permission for J16s