JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[RajaBaja]

Absolutely, Pakistan needs to market the JF17 aggressively

We need to take marketing OUT OF THE PAFs HANDS
And give marketing to a actual marketing company, international is preferable to come up with a professional campaign

The above list of countries is a start but any country in the developing world should be a target buyer


The biggest thing holding back the JF17 is the politics of weapons sales (the U.S will actively oppose)
And lack of ability on Pakistans part to provide finance options and loans
Maybe Chinese banks or routes can be found, but then why would China not just push J10s or something else


Sales will support development it's that simple,

You bring up a really valid point actually. There was a time back in the PDF days, when about Block I Thunder we used to have this same debate. @MastanKhan - The discussion is, take marketing out of the military personal's hands and give it to professional marketing companies. As you and I used to call it "give it to the suits and skirts"!! This post reminded me of those passionate discussions during block I's time.

But the idea stays the same, the logic is correct. However, the issue is, Kamra, HIT, GIDS, all are State owned organizations. If JFT was built by a Public company, we'd only see marketing firms. Since that's not the case, for the east of everyone's involvement, we can divide it into two marketing campaigns:
1: Our military can market to strategic allies, like Azerbaijan, and others in that region.
2: Hire a professional weapons marketing company out of Europe (not I didn't say the US for a purpose). Europeans are well received in second tier nations, Africa and even in South America. So let them pitch to the second and third world nations. When they have a solid lead, for technical qualifications, they can immediately ask for support from the military.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[ghazi52]

 

[gamaji]

The JF-17 remains a cost-effective platform when compared to similar fighter aircraft such as the Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale, and F-16, both in terms of acquisition and operational costs. While the unit cost of the newer Block III variant may exceed the earlier estimates of approximately $25 million for Block I, it continues to offer significantly greater affordability relative to its peer platforms. Additionally, one of the key indicators of its low-cost advantage is its substantially lower operating cost per flight hour compared to these comparable aircraft.

We need to highlight the lethality of JF-17 more than its being a cost-effective fighter.

The first impression associated with being cheap is not that good. The price aspect should rather act as a pleasant surprise after describing the plane as an extremely lethal machine that can take on the latest planes in its class and even punch above its class in certain areas.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

Yeah but why would the Mig-29 operator not just stick with the Mig-29? Do upgrades or buy additional planes they have familiarity with?

edit: I'm noticing, that the list wouldn't expand significantly even if Mig-29 operators were assessed as potential customers. For the ones that operate Mig-29s, they are able to afford things beyond the JF-17. Algeria and Egypt for example are not going to buy JF-17s.

View attachment 137870

Why would anyone want to fly Mig-29 in today's warfare? A mig-29 facing JF-17 will be shot down 10 out of 10 times. Its easily a full generation behind JF-17.
JF-17 is an AESA equipped jet that has HMD, HOBS missiles, long range combat proven BVRs.

If whoever can afford an expensive jet does not necessarily means that they have to buy an expensive jet. Who'd want to buy Rafales, or russian flankers after these all were blown to pieces by PL-15s. Recent indo pak conflict has altered perceptions world over. JF-17 as a light weight 4.5 gen and J-10C as medium weight 4.5 have appeared as perfect alternatives that have proved their mettle. Fighter aircraft procurement is not always linked with capabilities, its also geo-politics. Whichever country that has closer ties with China will definitely go with chinese made jets. China is working on this area. US, West and Soviet union (now russia) had already made their influence and markets for several decades. So not easy to make quick inroads but thanks for PAF display of aerial victories, the label of "combat proven" in now attached to chinese platforms & missiles. Will give a huge boost in future sales.

 

[hyperman]

Why would anyone want to fly Mig-29 in today's warfare? A mig-29 facing JF-17 will be shot down 10 out of 10 times. Its easily a full generation behind JF-17.
JF-17 is an AESA equipped jet that has HMD, HOBS missiles, long range combat proven BVRs.

Not necessarily, fights are not necessarily fighter vs fighter(Althought the Mig-29/35 is very capable) but Systems vs Systems. An operator may choose to stay with a more familiar aircraft for example the AESA integrated Mig-35, which is not inferior in any way.

Who'd want to buy Rafales, or russian flankers after these all were blown to pieces by PL-15s. Recent indo pak conflict has altered perceptions world over. JF-17 as a light weight 4.5 gen

Evidently Indonesia and others.

 

[gamaji]

Not necessarily, fights are not necessarily fighter vs fighter(Althought the Mig-29/35 is very capable) but Systems vs Systems. An operator may choose to stay with a more familiar aircraft for example the AESA integrated Mig-35, which is not inferior in any way.

While one cannot deny what you mentioned (i.e. system vs system), one cannot discount the capabilities of the individual fighters either. For example, a fighter having AESA radar, HMD, and HOBS missiles is certainly better than the one missing some or all of these. That's exactly the lethal combination of these capabilities (along with BVRs, IRST, and advanced self-defense EW suite) where JF-17 beats most of its competitors.

I would say JF-17 carries a punch much bigger than its size.

 

[Metal 0-1]

While one cannot deny what you mentioned (i.e. system vs system), one cannot discount the capabilities of the individual fighters either. For example, a fighter having AESA radar, HMD, and HOBS missiles is certainly better than the one missing some or all of these. That's exactly the lethal combination of these capabilities (along with BVRs, IRST, and advanced self-defense EW suite) where JF-17 beats most of its competitors.

I would say JF-17 carries a punch much bigger than its size.

Mig-35 checks all those boxes why would I want to be handicapped with a little jet which is almost there on paper. I have the money why I shouldn't buy
F-16 Blk 52 and above /Rafale/Eurofighter/Su-35/Mig-35
Now Rissians are testing AESA on Mig-29 too.
Pitch me JF-17 block 3

 

[RajaBaja]

Mig-35 checks all those boxes why would I want to be handicapped with a little jet which is almost there on paper. I have the money why shouldn't I buy
F-16 Blk 52 and above /Rafale/Eurofighter/Su-35/Mig-35
Now Rissians are testing AESA on Mig-29 too.
Pitch me JF-17 block 3

JF-17 block III is for the entire spectrum of 2nd and 3rd world countries. Countries that have the money to create a hi-lo and want a credible higher end capability plane for their airforce's work-horse duties.

Mig-29 or Mig-35 operating cost is much higher. Even if they start to match JF-17's sensor capability. Availability rates are lower, like is the case with twin engine aircraft, especially Russian one's. Per hours costs are much more.

JF-17 block III can perform airspace monitoring, interdiction and all main work-horse capabilities with providing today's higher end aircraft's capability for half the price.

 

[Toxic]

Mig-35 checks all those boxes why would I want to be handicapped with a little jet which is almost there on paper. I have the money why shouldn't I buy
F-16 Blk 52 and above /Rafale/Eurofighter/Su-35/Mig-35
Now Rissians are testing AESA on Mig-29 too.
Pitch me JF-17 block 3

Then why hasn't any airforce purchased the Mig 35 yet despite it being in production for over 5 years now? Because Russia itself has moved away from the Mig 29 as a platform when a airforce purchases a new aircraft platform they purchase it with the expectation that it is going to be supported for the aircrafts entire lifetime with the Mig 35 you don't get that it's amoung the reason for example the F-20 failed.

Also it's pointless comparing the JF-17 to something like the Rafale, Eurofighter, SU-30 and F-16v it's not meant to compete against those it occupies a different space in the market that was once filled by something like the F-5 in the past. Low cost good capabilities perfect for smaller airforces in Africa or Asia.

 

[Metal 0-1]

JF-17 block III is for the entire spectrum of 2nd and 3rd world countries.

End of Discussion.

If I want to do a sub 7 minutes lap around neurburgring and I have the cash I would definitely get a Porsche 911 GTRS.
Sure I can through money at an old E-46 and it'll be still cheaper than the GT3RS but it's not a GT3RS.

 

[Metal 0-1]

Then why hasn't any airforce purchased the Mig 35 yet despite it being in production for over 5 years now? Because Russia itself has moved away from the Mig 29 as a platform when a airforce purchases a new aircraft platform they purchase it with the expectation that it is going to be supported for the aircrafts entire lifetime with the Mig 35 you don't get that it's amoung the reason for example the F-20 failed.

Also it's pointless comparing the JF-17 to something like the Rafale, Eurofighter, SU-30 and F-16v it's not meant to compete against those it occupies a different space in the market that was once filled by something like the F-5 in the past. Low cost good capabilities perfect for smaller airforces in Africa or Asia.

Exactly it's pointless to compare Jeff with all those jets in a heavier weight category.

It's a perfect solution for countries like Azerbaijan, Nigeria, Myanmar

But any other country that can afford to spend more cash won't even glance at Jeff.

The answer to question, Why no one's buying Mig-35? Is similar answer to Why no one's buying Su-57

 

[Metal 0-1]

What the **** is this retarded argument you are trying to present. That's IF, IF you have that much money vast majority of countries don't.

Lol how many countries are buying JF-17. Countries with money to throw at are still buying European and American solution.
Exhibit A Indonesia. Entire Middle East. Even Egypt after years of scamming tourists at Pyramids of Giza

 

[Yasser76]

Politics has a lot to do with JF-17 sales.. For example the Iraqis really wanted this jet and were ahead of Azerbaijan in showing serious interest but we cannot sell it to them for many reasons

 

[hyperman]

Then why hasn't any airforce purchased the Mig 35 yet despite it being in production for over 5 years now? Because Russia itself has moved away from the Mig 29 as a platform when a airforce purchases a new aircraft platform they purchase it with the expectation that it is going to be supported for the aircrafts entire lifetime with the Mig 35 you don't get that it's amoung the reason for example the F-20 failed.

Also it's pointless comparing the JF-17 to something like the Rafale, Eurofighter, SU-30 and F-16v it's not meant to compete against those it occupies a different space in the market that was once filled by something like the F-5 in the past. Low cost good capabilities perfect for smaller airforces in Africa or Asia.

The ones that have Mig-29s, They purchased upgrade kits for the mig-29s, choosing that route instead. For other air forces where the Mig-35 was offered, they went with western fighters instead.

There are only 2 Mig-29 operators that have purchased JF-17s, Azerbaijan and Myanmar. And Azerbaijan would not buy Russian regardless of platform b/c of the geopolitics of the Caucasus as reliance on Russia for its air force would be problematic, and since Azerbaijan can't buy Western, the only option is Chinese and they bought the JF-17 due to their relationship with Pakistan, as well as being able to get more fighters than if they went the J-10C route, which is more expensive. Myanmar bought the JF-17s Block 2 to replace their other older jets, not their Mig-29s, which they have bought upgrade kits for.