PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[Pakistan Space Agency]

What are the latest rumours of further PAF inductions of J-10Cs?

 

[corven]

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In fact, if you understand this video, you can basically understand how powerful the domestic version of the J10C radar is. And how powerful the KJ500 radar performance is.

 

[LX1111]

You don't need to explain this. They have always believed that it was their Swedish AWACS that guided the PL-15. I think this statement is a joke. But they thought it was true. You're wasting your breath. Did you see what Michael said about this?

Pakistan will face serious problems in the next conflict. India is expanding the production of BrahMos missiles. Next time, India will launch more than 100 BrahMos missiles at a time.
Judging from the Ukrainian army's success rate in intercepting P800, Pakistan will suffer heavy losses.

5.69% success rate，This is considering that Ukraine has a large number of PAC-2/3，IRIS-T SLM，NASAMS
There are only about 2-3 HQ9 and 7-8 HQ16 units in Pakistan,The success rate will only be lower

 

[corven]

Pakistan will face serious problems in the next conflict. India is expanding the production of BrahMos missiles. Next time, India will launch more than 100 BrahMos missiles at a time.
Judging from the Ukrainian army's success rate in intercepting P800, Pakistan will suffer heavy losses.
View attachment 138705
5.69% success rate，This is considering that Ukraine has a large number of PAC-2/3，IRIS-T SLM，NASAMS
There are only about 2-3 HQ9 and 7-8 HQ16 units in Pakistan,The success rate will only be lower

Public information in China states that Pakistan has four HQ9 and eight HQ16 missile systems. Each HQ9 system has 16 rounds of ammunition (with four launch vehicles), while each HQ16 system has 24 rounds, for a total of 256 rounds. However, public information indicates that the HQ9 system is expensive, costing $200 million per system. If this price is true, Pakistan really cannot afford it.

 

[Fasbre2]

Pak needs to have 1000 brahmos equivalents, and most importantly accurate intelligence of their command and control nodes/ centres deep in India.. It also needs to have accurate real time targeting data of their awacs and green pine radars as well..

 

[Michael]

You don't need to explain this. They have always believed that it was their Swedish AWACS that guided the PL-15. I think this statement is a joke. But they thought it was true. You're wasting your breath. Did you see what Michael said about this?

I have always been skeptical about this issue. But the latest official video explains the process in full. So, the answer is yes: “The Erieye AEW&C can guide PL-15 missiles.” But it is very different from the KJ-500.

The AEW&C finds the target, but the J-10CE's radar does not. the AEW&C transmits the targeting information to the fighter via a datalink, and the fighter launches the PL-15 missile.

Guidance Mode One:
The AEW&C takes over guidance of the PL-15 missile, and the fighter returns to or leaves its combat position. When the PL-15 is about to approach the target, the AESA it carries turns on, and when it finds and locks on to the target, the AEW&C ends the guidance work. the PL-15 completes the subsequent mission completely autonomously.

Guidance Mode Two:
The AEW&C continuously sends updated data to the fighter via the datalink, and the fighter continuously guides the PL-15 missile based on the AEW&C's data using the fighter's fire control radar. Until the PL-15's AESA turns on and completes lock-on, the fighter guidance mission ends. Please It should be noted that in this state, the fighter's radar does not detect the target throughout the entire mission, and it relies solely on the AEW&C data and continues to work until the PL-15's own AESA is turned on, then it can leave. there is no direct communication between the PL-15 missile and the AEW&C throughout the entire mission.

Only PLAAF's AEW&Cs can use both modes to guide the PL-15 missile; other AEW&Cs can only use the second guidance mode.

In the latest official video of the J-10C defeating the J-20, it is using the second guidance mode.

The disadvantage of this mode is that after the fighter launches the missile, it needs to guide the PL-15 missile continuously and cannot leave the combat position. More accurately, the AEW&C does not guide PL-15 missiles in this model, but it enhances the fighter's guidance capability.

So, the claim that “Erieye AEW&C can't guide PL-15 missiles” is also valid.

That's the situation.

 

[LX1111]

Public information in China states that Pakistan has four HQ9 and eight HQ16 missile systems. Each HQ9 system has 16 rounds of ammunition (with four launch vehicles), while each HQ16 system has 24 rounds, for a total of 256 rounds. However, public information indicates that the HQ9 system is expensive, costing $200 million per system. If this price is true, Pakistan really cannot afford it.

Therefore, need to rely KJ500 expand the HQ-9 interception envelope
Otherwise, it would be difficult to detect tat a low altitude of 100 km BrahMos flying only reply the 780 radar.

 

[LX1111]

Guidance Mode Two:
The AEW&C continuously sends updated data to the fighter via the datalink, and the fighter continuously guides the PL-15 missile based on the AEW&C's data using the fighter's fire control radar. Until the PL-15's AESA turns on and completes lock-on, the fighter guidance mission ends. Please It should be noted that in this state, the fighter's radar does not detect the target throughout the entire mission, and it relies solely on the AEW&C data and continues to work until the PL-15's own AESA is turned on, then it can leave. there is no direct communication between the PL-15 missile and the AEW&C throughout the entire mission.

turkey shot down the Su-24 a few years ago using this tactic. The F-16 did not turn on its radar, and all target information was provided by the E-7.

 

[corven]

I have always been skeptical about this issue. But the latest official video explains the process in full. So, the answer is yes: “The Erieye AEW&C can guide PL-15 missiles.” But it is very different from the KJ-500.

The AEW&C finds the target, but the J-10CE's radar does not. the AEW&C transmits the targeting information to the fighter via a datalink, and the fighter launches the PL-15 missile.

Guidance Mode One:
The AEW&C takes over guidance of the PL-15 missile, and the fighter returns to or leaves its combat position. When the PL-15 is about to approach the target, the AESA it carries turns on, and when it finds and locks on to the target, the AEW&C ends the guidance work. the PL-15 completes the subsequent mission completely autonomously.

Guidance Mode Two:
The AEW&C continuously sends updated data to the fighter via the datalink, and the fighter continuously guides the PL-15 missile based on the AEW&C's data using the fighter's fire control radar. Until the PL-15's AESA turns on and completes lock-on, the fighter guidance mission ends. Please It should be noted that in this state, the fighter's radar does not detect the target throughout the entire mission, and it relies solely on the AEW&C data and continues to work until the PL-15's own AESA is turned on, then it can leave. there is no direct communication between the PL-15 missile and the AEW&C throughout the entire mission.

Only PLAAF's AEW&Cs can use both modes to guide the PL-15 missile; other AEW&Cs can only use the second guidance mode.

In the latest official video of the J-10C defeating the J-20, it is using the second guidance mode.

The disadvantage of this mode is that after the fighter launches the missile, it needs to guide the PL-15 missile continuously and cannot leave the combat position.

Doesn't the second mode still mean the fighter is guiding the PL-15? We're discussing the AWACS's ability to directly guide the PL-15. The Erieye aircraft clearly can't directly guide the PL-15. What they have always said is that during this process the J10C radar is not turned on and is only responsible for launching PL15.

 

[corven]

I have always been skeptical about this issue. But the latest official video explains the process in full. So, the answer is yes: “The Erieye AEW&C can guide PL-15 missiles.” But it is very different from the KJ-500.

The AEW&C finds the target, but the J-10CE's radar does not. the AEW&C transmits the targeting information to the fighter via a datalink, and the fighter launches the PL-15 missile.

Guidance Mode One:
The AEW&C takes over guidance of the PL-15 missile, and the fighter returns to or leaves its combat position. When the PL-15 is about to approach the target, the AESA it carries turns on, and when it finds and locks on to the target, the AEW&C ends the guidance work. the PL-15 completes the subsequent mission completely autonomously.

Guidance Mode Two:
The AEW&C continuously sends updated data to the fighter via the datalink, and the fighter continuously guides the PL-15 missile based on the AEW&C's data using the fighter's fire control radar. Until the PL-15's AESA turns on and completes lock-on, the fighter guidance mission ends. Please It should be noted that in this state, the fighter's radar does not detect the target throughout the entire mission, and it relies solely on the AEW&C data and continues to work until the PL-15's own AESA is turned on, then it can leave. there is no direct communication between the PL-15 missile and the AEW&C throughout the entire mission.

Only PLAAF's AEW&Cs can use both modes to guide the PL-15 missile; other AEW&Cs can only use the second guidance mode.

In the latest official video of the J-10C defeating the J-20, it is using the second guidance mode.

The disadvantage of this mode is that after the fighter launches the missile, it needs to guide the PL-15 missile continuously and cannot leave the combat position. More accurately, the AEW&C does not guide PL-15 missiles in this model, but it enhances the fighter's guidance capability.

So, the claim that “Erieye AEW&C can't guide PL-15 missiles” is also valid.

That's the situation.

Furthermore, I suspect that aircraft 01 and 02 were working together during the video. According to your explanation, if it were simply guidance, there would be no need for the radars of aircraft 01 and 02 to illuminate the same target simultaneously. During this period, the J10C should rely on the coordination of its onboard radar to guide the PL15. The AWACS aircraft was not involved. Otherwise, aircraft 03 would not have been requested to coordinate the scan.

 

[RajaBaja]

This approach creates a chicken and egg scenario for the export of Chinese weapons systems. If China wants to develop a weapons export industry, then it needs to work out an effective approach. Maybe the reason why Chinese weapons exports are so low, are precisely because of the approach you have articulated ?

That is what the Chinese members @Michael @Shanlung @nang2 @chinasun are trying to explain to us again and again. China has a LOT of catching up to do. China's own needs are so massive that for the next ten years at the least, the Chinese manufacturing is going to be busy with producing weapons ONLY for their needs.

They will offer some weapons for foreign buyers but not so much that they will risk their internal orders to be delayed.

Take an example, whether one likes it or not, China is now in a direct competition with the US. There may even be a war on Taiwan between the two. So can China go to war with less military, top end aircrafts, and weapon systems than the US? No, it will lose. So that's their current industry focus.

Just imagine, US air force along has 2500+ combat jets, US Navy also has 3700 aircraft our of which half should be combat jets, then you have US marines also with about 400-500 combat jets of various kind. So China is facing a super power with over 5000 combat jets. Additionally, there are around 5000+ RESERVES. So China has to estimate and war game this massive number. Of course, not all of these will be in a fight but what if a real war starts and goes long term?

So in my opinion, China needs around 4000 combat jets out of which, at least 2000+ will be 5th gen. China still can't beat the US in numbers and reserves because the US has been building reserves since 1980's for a war with Russia. But from what I am seeing is, China wants to outpace the older inventory of US systems by advance TECH. That's why we see J-20, J-35, J-36 and J-50 being in pipes. China is building a future airforce and navy. While the US has a large number of older platforms compared to what China is building.

@Yasser76 @Meengla @pwfi @PAKISTANFOREVER @corven @Pakistan Space Agency @LX1111 your input on above?

 

[corven]

I have always been skeptical about this issue. But the latest official video explains the process in full. So, the answer is yes: “The Erieye AEW&C can guide PL-15 missiles.” But it is very different from the KJ-500.

The AEW&C finds the target, but the J-10CE's radar does not. the AEW&C transmits the targeting information to the fighter via a datalink, and the fighter launches the PL-15 missile.

Guidance Mode One:
The AEW&C takes over guidance of the PL-15 missile, and the fighter returns to or leaves its combat position. When the PL-15 is about to approach the target, the AESA it carries turns on, and when it finds and locks on to the target, the AEW&C ends the guidance work. the PL-15 completes the subsequent mission completely autonomously.

Guidance Mode Two:
The AEW&C continuously sends updated data to the fighter via the datalink, and the fighter continuously guides the PL-15 missile based on the AEW&C's data using the fighter's fire control radar. Until the PL-15's AESA turns on and completes lock-on, the fighter guidance mission ends. Please It should be noted that in this state, the fighter's radar does not detect the target throughout the entire mission, and it relies solely on the AEW&C data and continues to work until the PL-15's own AESA is turned on, then it can leave. there is no direct communication between the PL-15 missile and the AEW&C throughout the entire mission.

Only PLAAF's AEW&Cs can use both modes to guide the PL-15 missile; other AEW&Cs can only use the second guidance mode.

In the latest official video of the J-10C defeating the J-20, it is using the second guidance mode.

The disadvantage of this mode is that after the fighter launches the missile, it needs to guide the PL-15 missile continuously and cannot leave the combat position. More accurately, the AEW&C does not guide PL-15 missiles in this model, but it enhances the fighter's guidance capability.

So, the claim that “Erieye AEW&C can't guide PL-15 missiles” is also valid.

That's the situation.

Research on simultaneously operating aircraft A and B to counter stealth fighters has long been conducted in China. Aircraft B receives the transmissions from aircraft A, and aircraft A receives the transmissions from aircraft B. However, no one knows how far this method has progressed.

 

[RajaBaja]

For missiles like BrahMos,Saab AWACS is difficult to play its due role
The detection range of ground radar for this Low altitude supersonicmissile is no more than 70 km. interception window not exceed 10S
.The most effective way to counter BrahMos missiles is AWACS guided HQ9,
View attachment 138702
That is CEC，this is USA solution solve USSR hypersonic missiles,Similar to China,
E2D guides Sm-6.Saab AWACS cannot guide Chinese missiles，Unable to intercept BrahMos
View attachment 138703

US has the luxury to deploy aircrafts and create an AWACS / OTH radar layer hundreds or even thousands of miles away from it's land, cover any enemy's portion of airspace and relay concerned object's data and coordinates back to its entire network, including interceptor SEALs (Sea, Land, Air) within seconds. So there is warning time to try to hit every incoming object with at least 3 layers of AD's and multiple shots per every layer.

In Pakistan - India's case, we don't have that luxury. The warning time to impact is just a few seconds for high velocity weapons like Brahmos or some other hypersonic object.

What we really need is an OTH setup. For that, HQ-19 and a couple of radar satellites will do the job. I believe the radar satellite we just launched, does have a SAR imaging system. HQ-19 needs to come in.

 

[Michael]

turkey shot down the Su-24 a few years ago using this tactic. The F-16 did not turn on its radar, and all target information was provided by the E-7.

It is not appropriate to talk about matters related to Turkey as a Chinese in this forum. In order to minimize unnecessary trouble, you are advised not to discuss topics involving Turkey in the future.

What they have always said is that during this process the J10C radar is not turned on and is only responsible for launching PL15.

The customer is God! What the customer says is right!
Please repeat the above paragraph 1000 times!
Inside you must know, “This is never going to happen!” . But you don't have to argue with them about it.

Furthermore, I suspect that aircraft 01 and 02 were working together during the video. According to your explanation, if it were simply guidance, there would be no need for the radars of aircraft 01 and 02 to illuminate the same target simultaneously. During this period, the J10C should rely on the coordination of its onboard radar to guide the PL15. The AWACS aircraft was not involved. Otherwise, aircraft 03 would not have been requested to coordinate the scan.

Specific details cannot be discussed.

 

[ARMalik]

It was the Brqhmos launched via mobile Launchers which were the main problem. Lauches from jets, fixed locations, etc was very quickly neutralized by Pakistan. In fact Pakistan destroyed a whole arms depot containing Brahmos.

Also, Indian mobile launchers near the border were neutralized very quickly, so indians moved these launchers inside their border by around 300 kilometres.

So the problem is mobile launchers located deep inside India. Also, if India plans for surprised strikes.