Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KP) Terrorism Watch

[Baadil]

Are you suggesting all provinces become de-facto independent territories? I see little reason for a "Pakistan" to exist in such a scenario it would serve little practical purpose or reason. I doubt any province would be able to agree on much.

Exactly, or a model like India which is what would satisfy your ideology. I will share you some quotes from @Nilgiri 's excellent contributions, even though I disagree. I think you guys are basically on the same page.

What do all mainstream ideologies intersect and even agree on. Start there (basic law i.e the constitution and republic) and then work outwards (legislative process and judicial feedback check and balance loop) as free of identity-exclusivity based groups as possible (favouritism, suppression of these i.e systemic bias in the state that veers it to maximalism early) ....be they religion, ethnicity, creed, class, any descriptor that comes after it.

i.e what is physics vs metaphysics. Why is the meta added, what does it mean.

Continued:

Why is the meta best left in the body public (nation) as far as possible rather than favouring one over the other (in the state, given the power the state has and the role of the state).....there is heavy subjectivism....can one religion or theology objectively prove things to another? No.

I disagreed with the position above as explained a little bit at the bottom, and hopefully clear from my responses in this thread.
Continued:

They are still important things to discuss and engage in to one's preference, but they should not come to the state power.

To understand where I am coming from, maybe its best you read what I have to say w.r.t Turkish republic and Ataturk in this earlier reply in this thread:

What book are you reading?

I await any commentary you have, if any, on the social contract etc and any worthy sidetracks....before I proceed a bit more....the route to artificial intelligence (nobody is engaging a book on) lies first in exploring human intelligence. Perhaps a little later. I am wrestling with a number...

defencepk.com

Especially this part of reply no. 4 I posted in another forum (I have bolded some basic things I think all groups accept are objective and rational and do not engage exclusive in-group out group identity basis and politics that politicians will inevitably prey upon for their benefit at detriment to population holding them accountable on the basic things):

That is why statist operating principles need to be geared to being minimalist and focused as possible to that which is objective (within the nation)...i.e physical.

Law and order, security of the nation, administration, national infrastructure, long term merit institutions and so on and addressing any severe instances of market failure collectively by way of the state (in a market infancy period etc).

Things like religion, theology et al. are vast domains within the even larger domain of metaphysics.

The core self evident truths (preceding the nationstate formation) stemming from these can be harnessed and applied (regd the social contract and law etc which I mentioned earlier) without all the assorted baggage in the metaphysical alleyways (which are interesting to get into within bounds, but should not be wielded in the state) that will only impose costs.

A metaphysical+maximalist oriented state will do damage to the nation and start grievous erosions, conflicts (to add to any ongoing ones) and collapses....as it posits perfectionist utopia and make enemies among its own body quickly by power for power sake elitist capture and so on.

@SecularNationalist this is the thread that may interest you (regd secularism and the state), both you and Baadil can read from about page 26 when I post the social contract and develop my core premise for a minimalist state vs a maximalist (burdensome one). Maximalism by its raw larger gravity will attract corruption in deep ways harnessing identities in society.....and keep it backwards if its early or be a huge unnecessary and even destructive weight if its late.

You can tag any others you think are interested in slowly fleshing out things on this or think have worthy things to contribute.....also any other things that pop up in this thread that interest you.

My reply to @Sharma Ji in another discussion which I believe addresses the above from Nilgiri:

No problem I am here to learn your perspectives and hopefully highlight something others consider worth learning.

Mate some Muslims may also be driven by emotion but the primary material is there for you to have a look at. It would not hurt whenever you are able to

Islam makes claim to objectivity based upon belief in One God. Hence why in a separate thread, I have highlighted the contradiction of the idea of the proponents of two nation theory advocating a secular nation which @Asfandyar Bhittani provided evidence to indicate was not true.

I have also not had time to show my gratitude to @Nilgiri for sign-posting and including in a discussion regarding Kemalism and Secularism in general. However, as alluded to above, the principle is that what is defined as “objective” is incompatible between Secular and Islamic paradigm. In this regard, my primary grievance is with Pakistani proponents of Secularism.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Distant_Observer]

When are they going to attack TTP and BLA bases in Afghanistan?

 

[El Sidd]

Are you suggesting all provinces become de-facto independent territories? I see little reason for a "Pakistan" to exist in such a scenario it would serve little practical purpose or reason. I doubt any province would be able to agree on much.

I am not suggesting, i am saying this is happening and unfolding in front of us. Democratic will of the people.

 

[Starlord]

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That's the biggest issue here, Pakistani Tribals just don't get over their love for Afghans no matter how many beheading they did for their elders, Afghan's spit on Tribal elders and they lick it and still want to harbor their terrorists, and we are told Pushtoon bari Honorable and Gayyur qoum hai ... lol

 

[gamaji]

Saudis are not coming to Pakistan to fight against terrorists or even in an advisory capacity. What world are you living in ? Saudis are only good for ordering from a menu at a restaurant.

As far as Turkey goes, the improving Turkish economy and country development and political reforms has more to do with solving the Kurdish issue than Turkish military. The Turk military is a bloated mess just like Pakistan's.

I said token but very visible Saudi involvement. One way to do that is frequent visits of Imams/sheikhs of Alhermain Shreifan. Most, if not all, of these TTP terrorists are Deobandi jahil people. Saudi involvement will have a significant effect on the TTP recruiting grounds.

As for your weird claims regarding Türkiye, it was Turkish forces that eliminated terrorism in there. Please tell us why you think the 'Turk military is a bloated mess just like Pakistan's'.

 

[hussain0216]

That's the biggest issue here, Pakistani Tribals just don't get over their love for Afghans no matter how many beheading they did for their elders, Afghan's spit on Tribal elders and they lick it and still want to harbor their terrorists, and we are told Pushtoon bari Honorable and Gayyur qoum hai ... lol

Yep and this is the basic problem

Why the state doesn't be brutal and ruthless is the fear that if they slaughter the TTP, Taliban and their are collateral damage to local wingnuts then locals may cause problems and their is a question if it's a risk worth taking

State for years has gambled that they will take the soft IBO route over hard operations to prevent possible dumbfukkery by the tribal afghan.and Baloch population and the few hundred or so casualties is a price worth paying

We have to change that now and go hard and if anyone wants to play games or commit crimes and spread propaganda then we need to start handing out long prison sentences, no more endless tribal fassad is acceptable

 

[Starlord]

Yep and this is the basic problem

Why the state doesn't be brutal and ruthless is the fear that if they slaughter the TTP, Taliban and their are collateral damage to local wingnuts then locals may cause problems and their is a question if it's a risk worth taking

State for years has gambled that they will take the soft IBO route over hard operations to prevent possible dumbfukkery by the tribal afghan.and Baloch population and the few hundred or so casualties is a price worth paying

We have to change that now and go hard and if anyone wants to play games or commit crimes and spread propaganda then we need to start handing out long prison sentences, no more endless tribal fassad is acceptable

See normal people realize that and say you know Afghans have bring nothing good for Tribal areas, except war and destruction, Tribal people tried to tame the TTP and Taliban for years using their tribal connections but what happen? we all know all major peace treaties fell apart, hence more Elders got hanged on Chowks but these Tribal people still wants to let Afghans in, despite back stabbing after another and they hold grudges against their own military for being Punjabi daal khors, I am starting to believe that Pushtoon and Baloch evolve backwards, their people doesn't even have mental capacity to understand who is their friend and who is enemy, they are so mentally incapacitated that they cannot comprehend nor judge between right and wrong, they don't care about the well being of their own future Generations, bas humara Tribal system zinda rahe bhale 10 Generations pagal kuttu ki tarah larti aur marti rahen, I don't blame Govt completely although they are partially to blame but mostly the issues lies within the people of KPK/Balochistan, and unfortunately they are still not capable of acknowledging issues within their own let alone any leader or people rising up to fix it, hence we see people of KPK/Balochistan behave and act like primitives' humans while the rest of the world living in 21st century.

 

[hussain0216]

See normal people realize that and say you know Afghans have bring nothing good for Tribal areas, except war and destruction, Tribal people tried to tame the TTP and Taliban for years using their tribal connections but what happen? we all know all major peace treaties fell apart, hence more Elders got hanged on Chowks but these Tribal people still wants to let Afghans in, despite back stabbing after another and they hold grudges against their own military for being Punjabi daal khors, I am starting to believe that Pushtoon and Baloch evolve backwards, their people doesn't even have mental capacity to understand who is their friend and who is enemy, they are so mentally incapacitated that they cannot comprehend nor judge between right and wrong, they don't care about the well being of their own future Generations, bas humara Tribal system zinda rahe bhale 10 Generations pagal kuttu ki tarah larti aur marti rahen, I don't blame Govt completely although they are partially to blame but mostly the issues lies within the people of KPK/Balochistan, and unfortunately they are still not capable of acknowledging issues within their own let alone any leader or people rising up to fix it, hence we see people of KPK/Balochistan behave and act like primitives' humans while the rest of the world living in 21st century.

The biggest problem is we hàve REAL enemies in the world

The hindutva
The Zionists
White supremacists

People who have genocidal view of Muslims and Pakistani and we need to be ready and prepared for them and start arming up and getting ready

And we have these donkey P&Bs, who like some retarded village idiot who got kicked in the head by a horse when he was young, attacking their own country, causing death, violence and insecurity that effects economy and development to enforce some backwards jahils tribal bullshit

The amount of damage they have caused Pakistan is immeasurable

If and when WW3 breaks out the same jahil bastards will be waiting for the rest of the country to support them, I'm beginning to detest them

 

[Starlord]

The biggest problem is we hàve REAL enemies in the world

The hindutva
The Zionists
White supremacists

People who have genocidal view of Muslims and Pakistani and we need to be ready and prepared for them and start arming up and getting ready

And we have these donkey P&Bs, who like some retarded village idiot who got kicked in the head by a horse when he was young, attacking their own country, causing death, violence and insecurity that effects economy and development to enforce some backwards jahils tribal bullshit

The amount of damage they have caused Pakistan is immeasurable

If and when WW3 breaks out the same jahil bastards will be waiting for the rest of the country to support them, I'm beginning to detest them

Of course didn't Pakistani's support them? What discrimination does any Baloch or Pushtoon face? they are never called " Not Pakistani's ", they can work and move to any part of Pakistan, take Indian Dalit example for comparison, their untouchable has no value in Society, they can't even go same Temples as Brahmin, they are thrown in outskirts of villages where no one talk to them and they live and die in isolation, does any Baloch or Puhstoon face similar behavior in Pakistan?
their R@ndi rona is never ending but zero self accountability, as for economic development, I travel via Ghetto's of Tampa and few other cities, you go there and from a 1st world standard you will see infrastructure that is disgusting and non existent, business closed, houses look like trash, high crime rate, abandoned streets, trash everywhere, no nice restaurant or business or major retail store, so what these low income people who think Govt abandoned them do? Start blow shit up ? or killing soldiers in ambushes ? no... no decent human being does that, can anyone in Pakistan say Karachi which is the biggest Economic city in Pakistan is anywhere near Perfect ? no clean water, no electricity, no roads, sewerage water everywhere, people literally living next to Nalaa, anyone can recruit them to blow kids up right? but these people every day go out and do labor jobs, hard work so they can bring few thousands rupee to their families so their kids can eat, Baloch and Pushtoon/Tribals they join TTP, they becomes pawn for Foreign agencies, Haram khori kerni hai but Halal ways se Income nai kamani.

Look at Balochistan, anyone who ever google Balochistan can see how beautiful and majestic Balochistan is, beautiful mountains, some ranges even look alien planets, beautiful beaches like Florida, lots of potential for vacation spots, minerals, beach front resorts and properties but even our own Karachiites don't want to go there and promote tourism because of the BLA/BRA types, and eventually who suffer because of that? Army ? Army get their budget, people who suffer most are Baloch who will earn good money due to tourism, they can open businesses, imagine if peace is in Balochistan and we see farm houses or resorts build up in Coastal areas, how many jobs it will open for Baloch people, those who are not educated for jobs can have smaller works like stall of fries or other street food vendors, but nope... they want to kill labors and turn Balochistan into a dangerous place barring common Balochi from halal income so their Tribal elders can enjoy their haram life in EU fcuking EU prostitutes while Jahil Baloch who supports BLA and insurgency stuck in a constant cycle of poverty and suffering, its really frustrating to see how can whole ethnic groups with millions of people be so low IQ, dumb , sust and haram khors that rather than doing hard work to earn they just prefer joining BLA or helping them to destroy the very region they so proudly want to liberate..

 

[RajaBaja]

Here we go the not so distant history repeating itself, didn't we cleared Bajaur a Gazillion times before? TTP knows that Tribals are violent and stupid people, 2 rupee ka Islam ka warrior Churan bechen gay aur Terrorism spread karen gay, while TTP funding comes from mainly Hindu Idol worshipers, The issue is not Islam or radicalization that happen during ZIA times, the problem is ethnic racism which has deep roots in Baloch and Pushtoon Tribal culture, our region/ethnic/tribe over Pakistan, these people never and will never completely assimilate in the Idea of Pakistan because they are still living in their barbaric Tribal system, there are a lot of Tribal people in the world, next door we have Tribal Indians, although they fight under Naxal's flag but majority of them were peaceful farmers who picked up arms against India and now they are vanishing faster than IAF chief's brain cells, New ZeaLand, America , Australia and many other countries have Tribal people and most of them progress and also become patriotic towards there countries putting their Tribal identity back but here in Pakistan that never happen, Pushtoon/Baloch not only stick to their stupid system but they never started the conversation how the Tribal people can progress towards been civilized. Jahil/Violent the, Jahil/Violent hain aur Jahil/Violent rahen gay. Army will start operation, save the Tribals (Again) give them some peace to work, build their areas, work peacefully but nope they will keep supporting TTP, giving them their daughters in marriage, give them shelter, hide them from intelligence agencies, provide them weapons, cars to move around, but if you call these people out for doing the same thing for 2-3 decades they will just either call you racist or blame old bad strategies of Pakistani politicians and dictators, which I call BS. Zia policy was in late 80's which spill over into the 90's, but even now the world is moving towards advancements these people just blame others, past, for their violent actions and chutiyape but never never never will take responsibility and look in their own banyaan to rehabilitate their societies, same churan, same majan, different generation.

This is an excellent post. I agree with many things. The issue isn't Islam. We have Modi who is a bhugat, ready to stop water for 250 million people, or, wage war on Pakistan to take revenge for Mughals rule on India, for every terror attack on India and for every embarrassment we've caused him. Without fear for humanity. We have people like Hitler and Natanyahoo also. All these people are extremists and so are TTP / Talibans too. They all want money, power, fame beyond just "religious goodness".

The issue with our tribal belt and Afghanistan is deep rooted hatred and racism to be frank. Where its considered ok to take whatever benefits Pakistan gives you, but always prefer Afghanistan in your personal relationships due to still having the tribal culture.

This needs to change, otherwise, this time, the army is very serious in ending this situation once and for all, despite of casualties. We can't have 10000 TTP members trained by India with suicide drones sitting on our doorsteps. That will never be allowed. So its better if the tribesmen can show loyalty to Pakistan and act in our interest over personal relations.

@hussain0216 You are on point with the following. We can manage the White Supremacists easily. India did this too. If you have a strategic relationship with the US, and like it's been going, there is media hyper and the US also puts it on the media about US - Pakistani relations like they did with US - India and US - Korean relations, you are welcomed and accepted. But with Zionism and Hindutva, they want you dead and gone.

Anyone thinking "its talk for domestic consumption in India" etc, etc, will be sadly surprised when a large attack is upon us. So our best defense is, get as powerful militarily as possible and be ready, sort of Israel. Constantly on DefCon3. In past 15 months, they've waged wars on 5 different countries. So we need that readiness here. No "constraints" and "maturity" this time. Or they will try to crush us.

 

[Distant_Observer]

This is an excellent post. I agree with many things. The issue isn't Islam. We have Modi who is a bhugat, ready to stop water for 250 million people, or, wage war on Pakistan to take revenge for Mughals rule on India, for every terror attack on India and for every embarrassment we've caused him. Without fear for humanity. We have people like Hitler and Natanyahoo also. All these people are extremists and so are TTP / Talibans too. They all want money, power, fame beyond just "religious goodness".

The issue with our tribal belt and Afghanistan is deep rooted hatred and racism to be frank. Where its considered ok to take whatever benefits Pakistan gives you, but always prefer Afghanistan in your personal relationships due to still having the tribal culture.

This needs to change, otherwise, this time, the army is very serious in ending this situation once and for all, despite of casualties. We can't have 10000 TTP members trained by India with suicide drones sitting on our doorsteps. That will never be allowed. So its better if the tribesmen can show loyalty to Pakistan and act in our interest over personal relations.

They can't even read or write. Majority of them are common criminals, rapists and murderers.

OBL promised the Taliban they will have Pakistan. This is the level of delusion. They were corrupting minds in KPK since 1992. Other provinces were affected too but not as widespread. So this is the true origin of TTP. It's a proxy group of the Taliban and Afghanistan.

Pakistanis have yet to hold anyone accountable or even attempt to capture or kill the leader of TTP. We are now in year 20.

 

[PakAl]

I said token but very visible Saudi involvement. One way to do that is frequent visits of Imams/sheikhs of Alhermain Shreifan. Most, if not all, of these TTP terrorists are Deobandi jahil people. Saudi involvement will have a significant effect on the TTP recruiting grounds.

As for your weird claims regarding Türkiye, it was Turkish forces that eliminated terrorism in there. Please tell us why you think the 'Turk military is a bloated mess just like Pakistan's'.

Since the Taliban government has come to power, we have witnessed a divorce between Deobandis and Saudi Najdis, so all funding has been stopped, Taligh Jamaat has been declared by Saudia as terrorist organisation and banned, this is all due to Saudis being upset with Taliban since Taliban consider themselves as independent power and not Saudia puppet, and Saudia wants Muslim states as puppets so they can then ring their masters in Tel Aviv and Washington to say they control muslim leaders for the zionists. Those who don't listen are destroyed like Saddam, Gaddafi, Assad, and a few others.

So we need to stay away from saudia mullahs and your inviting them to Pakistan lol. Why not control your own country and affairs rather than relying on others, this is exactly how we lost control of the militants, they swear allegiance to foreign mullahs who we have no control over, they mullahs then use them for their political leadership, like in Syria where the militants waged jihad against Assad, billions were pumped by Saudis to topple Assad.

Pakistan must stop all foreign interference, take control of Pakistan affairs, become independent and InshaAllah we will be united and strong.

 

[Nilgiri]

Exactly, or a model like India which is what would satisfy your ideology. I will share you some quotes from @Nilgiri 's excellent contributions, even though I disagree. I think you guys are basically on the same page.


Continued:

I disagreed with the position above as explained a little bit at the bottom, and hopefully clear from my responses in this thread.
Continued:


My reply to @Sharma Ji in another discussion which I believe addresses the above from Nilgiri:

In the end, obviously there needs to be local/provincial govt and federal one....it becomes matter where you delegate responsibility/authority and for which matters.

I lean toward keeping the federal side as minimalist but focused as possible: national security, foreign affairs, federal infrastructure, federal courts+admin (i.e the things that local govt cannot do).

This is why I believe things like religion should not colour the statist ideology as far as possible (you may take its principles and apply in universal but secular way though....which IMO is the way to go) as it adds majoritarianism precedent unnecessarily when a whole immense amount already exists in society "baked in" to begin with* (interfering with rule of law and justice application in non-discriminatory manner to the citizens).

I believe Jinnah more or less believed in that too but it was tough ask at that moment to carry it through (given nature and contours of partition based on religion majoritarianism and how this influenced large portions of the elite in Pakistan furthermore to double down to secure an identity best way they saw it etc), not helped by Jinnah's death soon after partition either (and if he could bring to bear any influence upon the constituent assembly etc).

@Oscar is another worth tagging to this kind of discussion.

*explaining eventual rise of BJP downstream to INC earlier foundational ethos for the state (but INC absconding of mass universal education, social reform, human capital development in general especially in the North that set the stage for this)

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Pakistanis are a confused people. On top of that highly radicalised with a mix of illogical wahabbis, ikhwanism, bralveism. Even the Pakistani ideology is quite hollow beyond surface level.

This confusion about the country's existence or purpose creates lethargy in all its institutions, especially military and the policies.

I think without a clearly defined meaningful foundation or identity that makes sense you can't move forward, it will be a cycle of instability and radical shifts from liberal grifting, to extremism, to feudalism, etc.

Pan-Islamist ideals are the antithesis of independent states. Because the entire point of pan-Islamism is to reduce your own identity to unimportant or meaningless and create an imaginary connective brotherhood identity with others — even those who evidently don't want such a thing and have a strong assabiyah based identity of their own.

Back in the late 1990s/early 2000s there was a big push for UK Pakistanis to give up on their Pakistani identity and focus on forging an identity with Arabs and other non-Pakistani Muslims based on Pan-Islam. The arabs vehemently rejected this and made it very clear that they don't want anything to do with Pakistanis nor do they see them as equals to Arabs. This push then fell apart and I am now seeing Pakistani nationalism rising with young British Pakistanis while retaining our Islamic faith. I hope we see a rise of Pakistani nationalism in Pakistan too.