15-year-old allegedly run over by employer after workplace dispute in Multan

[El Sidd]

What is your alternate? If it is the current system, then you should not be allowed to participate in these discussions. You are an advocate of status quo and consider some how Pakistanis deserve to be punished this way.

Status quo is Jirga and Panchayat.

The necessary DNA required for nations to produce lawgivers is non existent in Pakistani society.

 

[I*R*A]

Speaking to the broader set of societal issues, I don't think there is one member here who is a supporter of the status quo with the judiciary, policing, and other social aspects. The difference of opinion is whether we should have evolutionary changes (which will face progression and regression with obstacles that either emerge due to external factors or created by those with vested interests) or revolutionary.

Thanks to the indifference of Pakistani qoum and their great ability to just accept and adapt, chances of a revolution are very minute to none. Where millions just think of how to make ends meet, the luxury to think and plan a revolution is non existent, there is no motivation as the worry to earn bread and butter for ones family remains a hard task.

The correct saying "Jaisa Raja waisi Awam" fits perfectly for Pakistanis. As long as we remain stuck in delusions of democracy and how great that system is, we will stay where we are. It will take one honest leader with absolute authority to start correcting the course and another one to carry on with the plan and policies.

My problem is one sided criticism of traditional way of deciding matters and calling state provided venue a better option, which it is not. Heck the state couldn't even prosecute the known proven terrorists. What should people do where state provided facilities are non existent or the state has no writ?

 

[I*R*A]

Status quo is Jirga and Panchayat.

The necessary DNA required for nations to produce lawgivers is non existent in Pakistani society.

Is it the fault of the society? Did they ever have a say in matters of state? Or were they ever provided opportunities and environment to nourish that DNA?

Okay, they are backward for insisting to keep the jirga and panchayat, but where is the state's alternative and will to replace it with something better?

 

[El Sidd]

Is it the fault of the society? Did they ever have a say in matters of state? Or were they ever provided opportunities and environment to nourish that DNA?

Okay, they are backward for insisting to keep the jirga and panchayat, but where is the state's alternative and will to replace it with something better?

It may appear noble to absolve the society or paint a picture of some bright progressive nation in need of liberation from a foreign system but it does nothing but romanticise the issue.

You cannot just argue that the state and its people are 2 different parties.

 

[I*R*A]

It may appear noble to absolve the society or paint a picture of some bright progressive nation in need of liberation from a foreign system but it does nothing but romanticise the issue.

You cannot just argue that the state and its people are 2 different parties.

State has the responsibility for welfare and growth of its people. State provides them opportunities, peace, stability and facilities to build healthy learned societies. State is not there only to punish its people. If a state has failed, then you cannot simply blame the people for having their own methods and systems, life has to go on.

 

[RescueRanger]

State has the responsibility for welfare and growth of its people. State provides them opportunities, peace, stability and facilities to build healthy learned societies. State is not there only to punish its people. If a state has failed, then you cannot simply blame the people for having their own methods and systems, life has to go on.

Well said.

 

[El Sidd]

State has the responsibility for welfare and growth of its people. State provides them opportunities, peace, stability and facilities to build healthy learned societies. State is not there only to punish its people. If a state has failed, then you cannot simply blame the people for having their own methods and systems, life has to go on.

People fail way before any state failure.

The society needs to decide collectively whether they aspire for a social welfare state or continue with capitalistic ventures.

Generally the masses are extremely cautious with greater government control on most issues. An inherent mistrust of 'government' in what people perceive as strict personal choices is a factual observation.

 

[I*R*A]

People fail way before any state failure.

Please provide an example, a real life example, in a proper functional state where people are failing.

The society needs to decide collectively whether they aspire for a social welfare state or continue with capitalistic ventures.

Obviously, Qaroons of the society will collude with Hamans of society and install a Firon to subjugate the rest. How can that be called a collective decision? Your statement is an invitation to pure exploitation, unless everyone has been afforded equal opportunity and chance.

Generally the masses are extremely cautious with greater government control on most issues. An inherent mistrust of 'government' in what people perceive as strict personal choices is a factual observation.

State should not subjugate its people. Personal freedoms and liberties are not for the state to control. State's jurisdiction should remain to what happens in open, in public in a society.

 

[El Sidd]

Please provide an example, a real life example, in a proper functional state where people are failing.

Define functional state?

Obviously, Qaroons of the society will collude with Hamans of society and install a Firon to subjugate the rest. How can that be called a collective decision? Your statement is an invitation to pure exploitation, unless everyone has been afforded equal opportunity and chance.

But people admired Qarun and worshipped Firoun collectively.

State should not subjugate its people. Personal freedoms and liberties are not for the state to control. State's jurisdiction should remain to what happens in open, in public in a society.

Where do you draw the line? If your neighbours remain purposely illiterate, when do they become a public matter?

 

[Paitoo]

It may appear noble to absolve the society or paint a picture of some bright progressive nation in need of liberation from a foreign system but it does nothing but romanticise the issue.

You cannot just argue that the state and its people are 2 different parties.

Sorry to butt in. But this is a theme that occurs too often in India too. The rich and powerful get away too easily with murder. Are you saying that "hum aisay hi hain" and therefore "hamara justice system bhi asia hi hoga"? As far as I know, we have not given or withdrawn any powers from the system. We as a society want absolutely brutal punishments for offenders, and this is quite obvious from social media and interpersonal interactions. We are far from a forgiving society. So what makes you think that lack of justice is something that emerges from society, when the society, if liberated from the clutches of law, is ever willing to deliver street justice.

 

[El Sidd]

Sorry to butt in. But this is a theme that occurs too often in India too. The rich and powerful get away too easily with murder. Are you saying that "hum aisay hi hain" and therefore "hamara justice system bhi asia hi hoga"? As far as I know, we have not given or withdrawn any powers from the system. We as a society want absolutely brutal punishments for offenders, and this is quite obvious from social media and interpersonal interactions. We are far from a forgiving society. So what makes you think that lack of justice is something that emerges from society, when the society, if liberated from the clutches of law, is ever willing to deliver street justice.

We can traverse any eon back in time or study folklore of any given region, the human condition will not change by any measurable means.

It's pretty much official in India as the highest and the supreme of the court has noted the cockroach condition of the hapless masses.

What you mean by not a forgiving society only hold true once you factor in the communal nature of India.

 

[Paitoo]

We can traverse any eon back in time or study folklore of any given region, the human condition will not change by any measurable means.

It's pretty much official in India as the highest and the supreme of the court has noted the cockroach condition of the hapless masses.

What you mean by not a forgiving society only hold true once you factor in the communal nature of India.

This was not an India Pakistan question but a question about society and law. The Saudis are quick to deliver beheadings, when there is no local clamour for it, whereas we in South Asia (at least I can speak for India) are too willing too reform and pardon people when the locals actually want harsher punishments

 

[El Sidd]

This was not an India Pakistan question but a question about society and law. The Saudis are quick to deliver beheadings, when there is no local clamour for it, whereas we in South Asia (at least I can speak for India) are too willing too reform and pardon people when the locals actually want harsher punishments

For starters desert cultures, or where food has traditionally scarce, societies develop harsh discipline as mode of survival. Where food is enough to go around, societies employ much greater flexibility.

 

[Paitoo]

For starters desert cultures, or where food has traditionally scarce, societies develop harsh discipline as mode of survival. Where food is enough to go around, societies employ much greater flexibility.

I believe this has less to do with food abundance and more to do with a hodge podge confused society which as made a tapestry of a judicial system and is more interested in performative delivery of justice to satisfy their own liberal education than any real connection with society or principles of jurisprudence

 

[El Sidd]

I believe this has less to do with food abundance and more to do with a hodge podge confused society which as made a tapestry of a judicial system and is more interested in performative delivery of justice to satisfy their own liberal education than any real connection with society or principles of jurisprudence

That can't be the reason if the phenomenon is consistent throughout history.