1st HANGOR Class Submarine of Pakistan Navy has been launched at Shuangliu

[Taimoor]

Google Earth Images Reveal Larger, More Powerful Indian Nuclear Submarine showcasing it's Vertical Launch Tubes

8 SLBM tube covers is clearly visible and a few more behind the sail and engineering space Recent satellite imagery reveals India's latest nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine (SSBN), the S4, in it's outer dry dock, with it's shed open for the first time. Analysts are scrutinizing the...

defencepk.com

If , but, could, would..... all the typical Indian BS . come back to us when you have actually tested missiles from a sub in deep sea (not pontoon) .

 

[Quwa]

So which engine is the sub using and how long can it stay submerged?

China launches Pakistan’s Hangor submarine, despite engine row with Germany

The initial Hangor II delivery timetable would have seen the four Chinese-built submarines delivered by 2023.

www.yahoo.com

CHD620 with Chinese Stirling AIP.

Get back on topic (Hangor/S26/Type-039/PN). Off-topic posts from this point on will be deleted. Thanks. @Taimoor @DDG-80 @DevendraRajput @Zarvan @Bentley777 @White and Green with M/S

 

[Awwad]

@Quwa

They have started to spam the thread again. These guys are hilariously pretending as if India has some missile shield LMAO!!.. Indian air-defense miserably failed to shoot anything (except their own heli) at supposedly their most defended locations are hell bent on making joke out of themselves by posting wikipedia stats and diverting this thread. The @DevendraRajput & now @DDG-80 are deliberately derailing the topic with absolute nonsense.

@DevendraRajput butthurt guy simply can't digest that PN is going to dominate indian ocean with one of asia's largest attack SSP submarines.

Back to Hangor thread butthurt indian folks -- OR ping me in SSM / air-defense missile thread, I will school you that how its impossible to protect 7,500 KM of coastline and how Pakistani coastline is practically way more defensible because sheer quantity of air-defense units can be concentrated.

@DDG-80 talk about SSP / AIP enabled submarines in this thread. I don't know even india has any. Talk about how india would survive Pakistani submarine fleet. Don't spam this thread anymore. You want to post fantasy stories about indian air-defense then make a new related thread. We can put that in "joke of today" section of the forum.

 

[maverick]

Propulsion​

For propulsion, the S26 originally utilized four MTU 12V 396 SE84 marine engines, manufactured by MTU Friedrichshafen.[4] However, following a 2021 discovery revealing the dual-use of the German-made MTU engines on Chinese warships, in spite of a European Union-imposed embargo restricting the sale of military technology to China, the export of the engines to both the submarines of both the PN and the RTN were consequently blocked.[23][24] As an alternative to the MTU 12V 396 SE84, the CSOC reportedly offered a Chinese-made engine, dubbed the CHD620.[4] Although it is currently unclear if the RTN has accepted the CHD620, several sources have reported that the PN had tested and accepted the engine.[25]

In addition to the engines, the submarines are also set to be equipped with a Stirling-powered air-independent propulsion (AIP), developed by CSIC’s 711th Institute.[3] According to public information divulged by the CSIC, the S26 is reported to have a maximum diving depth of about 300 m (984 ft 3 in), a maximum submerged speed of 17 knots (31 km/h; 20 mph) and an estimated range of 768nm (or 20 days), while using AIP.[22] The maximum range for mixed AIP and diesel-electric travel is 2000 nm, or 65 days.[22]

Hangor-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can someone confirm the range of 2000 Nautical miles/2300 mile range ? This range is too low for these new subs? See links below to Indian major ports In Bay of Bengal. This is to make sure they can operate and target freely in Bay of Bengal.

Comments ?


If this is the case, these Subs cannot operate in bay of Bengal without a port call in the vicinity.

Sea routes and distances

Calculate sea route and distance for any 2 ports in the world.

ports.com

Sea routes and distances

Calculate sea route and distance for any 2 ports in the world.

ports.com

In Order to operate in Bay of Bengal they will need Sri Lankan port for refueling ? Comments

 

[Fox]

There are many firsts for Hangor-class, the largest submarine we have operated, the first to carry a nuclear-capable missile, at least operationally, the first to establish a second-strike capability and cross the nuclear triad threshold, etc.

But the real value of Hangor-class lies in the strategic nuclear deterrence it offers to Pakistan. There is ample room for improvement. For example, the stated range of Babur 3 is modest and the size of the warhead, conventional or nuclear, a cruise missile is expected to carry is, again, small and will remain small. I suspect Babur 3 is intended for Indian military installations and infrastructure. We are not excatly laying waste to Mumbai and Delhi with a Babur 3 strike, although a well-timed salvo can certainly make these cities a lot more unplesant than they currently are.

Every nuclear power has that capability except pak and i think north korea and samar mubarakmand said in its interview. when we developed nasar missile west started calling me now why you did this. nasar is a tactical missle with range only within 100 km what threat was is giving to west and America. And recent ballistic missile sanctions what was that. So west and america will always try to undermine and sabotage pak nuclear program and missile program through sanctions. Range is just a excuse they give. Its should not deter us if we have the capability and finances we should go for it not now then in future.

The US posed safety questions over command and control of our tactical nuclear weapons. In response, Pakistan offered assurances that all nuclear-cable missiles in our arsenal are de-mated during peacetime. That, and Pakistan fields a small enough force of nuclear weapons made us somewhat nonthreatening in the eyes of US.

This argument will be revisited in case of any naval deployments, and as the size and type of our nuclear arsenal expands.

 

[studsmart]

Can someone post high level specs of hangor please

 

[Tank131]

SSBN whenever comes will come from China. Or maybe a joint venture with Turkey. Not developing on our own. Even if tomorrow a miracle happens and Pakistan military budget jumps to 88 billion dollars still developing an SSBN completely on our own will be a stupid move

The notion of getting from China is also not sound in the current environment. SSBN are expensive to build and to operate. PN is likely not going to be in a position to buy or lease any such vessel in the near future. The only logical option would be Qing class SSKN from China but that is limited in capacity and was a single vessel (likely a technology demonstrator). Unlikely that PN could get this. Any such endeavor with Turkey would be 20 years in the future before you get any such vessel. And even then, turkey is working on SSK. Not even at SSN yet. Has a long way to go before this dream is even close to viable.

Currently best available option is to get the Baburs range up to 1500KM.

Defense budget has separate allocation it has nothing to do with imf. IMF program is for whole economy it is not for only defense purpose. It has limited impact on defense procurement and project not totally. We have a habit of mixing different things together. Budget is coming will see if there is a increase or decrease you will get your answers. These types of project SSBN and SLBM are not made overnight you have to invest on it over a longer period of time not like to invest all in one day. hangoor class submarines are coming with TOT which looks like navy is also looking in same direction and to be self sufficient in making conventional subs and you can also check program of jinnah class pak first home made frigate program which is official and currently happening. You can debate that the sensors radars will be borrowed... Etc.

Of course IMF has a lot to do with defense budget but not because they dictate budget but because it is a representation of the money available to the country. Your notion that there is some bottomless well of defense money is a fantasy. While there are certain funds dedicated to defense up front it is certainly nowhere near the level needed to do what many here are suggesting while also increasing acquisitions and maintain current operational readiness.

And to your point of investments, again comes to my point. You need to invest in such projects over decades. That means you invest in diesel electric submarine engine tech or sub reactor tech. You invest in R&D for hull design, propeller design etc. You invest in metallurgy to develop steel of naval quality. You in invest in R&D for subsystem for environmental management, electrical layouts, navigation, weapons and control systems as well as combat management system, fire protection system. Creating a sub requires investment in all these areas and more. The fact that Pakistan hasnt even put in the basic R&D for anything of the above is the point im making. Not that these things arent possible, but the notion if Pakistan achieving an indigenous SSBN with legit SLBM is minimum of 2-3 decades away based on the current status of Pakistans R&D sector and its manufacturing capabilities.

As i stated above, leasing a SSBN from China is possible but will likely be cost prohibitive as of now, and likely wont be an option of an value until Pakistan gets its economic house in order.

Pakistan is far closer to achieving a 1500km SLCM than it is to getting its house in order to lease/buy an SSBN which btw isnt without its political is pitfalls for both Pakistan and China. It then also has to develop a SLBM in order to arm said SSBN. Which it could conceivably do using a variation of Shaheen 1A.

 

[Malik]

Does anyone have any information regarding this program was announced in 2012 ??
When Pakistan decided to build a nuclear submarine in Pakistan with the help of China .

 

[Bentley777]

There are many firsts for Hangor-class, the largest submarine we have operated, the first to carry a nuclear-capable missile, at least operationally, the first to establish a second-strike capability and cross the nuclear triad threshold, etc.

But the real value of Hangor-class lies in the strategic nuclear deterrence it offers to Pakistan. There is ample room for improvement. For example, the stated range of Babur 3 is modest and the size of the warhead, conventional or nuclear, a cruise missile is expected to carry is, again, small and will remain small. I suspect Babur 3 is intended for Indian military installations and infrastructure. We are not excatly laying waste to Mumbai and Delhi with a Babur 3 strike, although a well-timed salvo can certainly make these cities a lot more unplesant than they currently are.



The US posed safety questions over command and control of our tactical nuclear weapons. In response, Pakistan offered assurances that all nuclear-cable missiles in our arsenal are de-mated during peacetime. That, and Pakistan fields a small enough force of nuclear weapons made us somewhat nonthreatening in the eyes of US.

This argument will be revisited in case of any naval deployments, and as the size and type of our nuclear arsenal expands.

Safety concerns on which grounds. America was not able to stop north korea and iran is in close stages of development of nuclear war head.they should focus there leave us alone. Us should bring something new they have old happit talking non sense. All the scientists AQ khan and samar mubarak mand have told multiple time nuclear mechanisms does not work like even if they stole the missile they cannot fire it. Even us knows that but it has happit of becoming father of world and always undermine and over exaggerate everything which is not in the interest of us or its allies.and why we will listen to usa to decide the threshold of our nuclear doctrine will they come here and safe us. There is no argument only propaganda. There was a news that uranium is being smuggled in black market in india dont know if was true false but the point is usa hypocrisy is always at his peak. How israel became nuclear power was CIA sleeping and where are sanctions on israel or there were any.

 

[Bentley777]

The notion of getting from China is also not sound in the current environment. SSBN are expensive to build and to operate. PN is likely not going to be in a position to buy or lease any such vessel in the near future. The only logical option would be Qing class SSKN from China but that is limited in capacity and was a single vessel (likely a technology demonstrator). Unlikely that PN could get this. Any such endeavor with Turkey would be 20 years in the future before you get any such vessel. And even then, turkey is working on SSK. Not even at SSN yet. Has a long way to go before this dream is even close to viable.

Currently best available option is to get the Baburs range up to 1500KM.

Of course IMF has a lot to do with defense budget but not because they dictate budget but because it is a representation of the money available to the country. Your notion that there is some bottomless well of defense money is a fantasy. While there are certain funds dedicated to defense up front it is certainly nowhere near the level needed to do what many here are suggesting while also increasing acquisitions and maintain current operational readiness.

And to your point of investments, again comes to my point. You need to invest in such projects over decades. That means you invest in diesel electric submarine engine tech or sub reactor tech. You invest in R&D for hull design, propeller design etc. You invest in metallurgy to develop steel of naval quality. You in invest in R&D for subsystem for environmental management, electrical layouts, navigation, weapons and control systems as well as combat management system, fire protection system. Creating a sub requires investment in all these areas and more. The fact that Pakistan hasnt even put in the basic R&D for anything of the above is the point im making. Not that these things arent possible, but the notion if Pakistan achieving an indigenous SSBN with legit SLBM is minimum of 2-3 decades away based on the current status of Pakistans R&D sector and its manufacturing capabilities.

As i stated above, leasing a SSBN from China is possible but will likely be cost prohibitive as of now, and likely wont be an option of an value until Pakistan gets its economic house in order.

Pakistan is far closer to achieving a 1500km SLCM than it is to getting its house in order to lease/buy an SSBN which btw isnt without its political is pitfalls for both Pakistan and China. It then also has to develop a SLBM in order to arm said SSBN. Which it could conceivably do using a variation of Shaheen 1A.

Who is stopping them from making it 1500km slcm it is a good thing . Point is if the world is moving nuclear subs then. No matter what you have to fill the gap it is a necessity. Who is wanting nuclear subs in good numbers keep working on conventional subs but lease or loan 2 3 nuclear subs till 2035 2040 so we can fill the gap other wise there will huge gaps will remain. Hoping for the best its true to develop nuclear subs will take at least 15 to 20 years.

 

[Zarvan]

Does anyone have any information regarding this program was announced in 2012 ??
When Pakistan decided to build a nuclear submarine in Pakistan with the help of China .

We didn't go with it than due to major economic issues. Plus, CPEC was not in the sight, so Navy was not that being focused on. But after 8 Hangoor from China. Next step very well could be a joint development of some sort of nuclear submarine. Either an SSN or SSBN.

 

[ghazi52]

AERIAL WARRIOR
@zspcl

The 2800 Tonnes Hangor-class equipped with 6 x 533mm torpedo tubes for heavy ASW torpedoes & ASCM plus Nuclear variant of Long Strike Babur land-attack cruise missiles LACM.
With 11 AIP Attack subs & SWATS inline, PN will have strong sub-sea fleet 2030

 

[Awwad]

We didn't go with it than due to major economic issues. Plus, CPEC was not in the sight, so Navy was not that being focused on. But after 8 Hangoor from China. Next step very well could be a joint development of some sort of nuclear submarine. Either an SSN or SSBN.

Next step could be country's own AIP enabled Sub. That will replace agosta's. More do-able action.

In nuclear-powered stuff, that's completely dependent on complete economic revival. Even then SSBN is a no-go area. SSN may happen in future only if thriving economy is achieved.

 

[studsmart]

Next step could be country's own AIP enabled Sub. That will replace agosta's. More do-able action.

In nuclear-powered stuff, that's completely dependent on complete economic revival. Even then SSBN is a no-go area. SSN may happen in future only if thriving economy is achieved.

I think next should be Pakistan building its own nuclear-powered sub with help from friends, It could be based on a hangor base design.

 

[Qureshi]

We didn't go with it than due to major economic issues. Plus, CPEC was not in the sight, so Navy was not that being focused on. But after 8 Hangoor from China. Next step very well could be a joint development of some sort of nuclear submarine. Either an SSN or SSBN.

Next step could be country's own AIP enabled Sub. That will replace agosta's. More do-able action.

In nuclear-powered stuff, that's completely dependent on complete economic revival. Even then SSBN is a no-go area. SSN may happen in future only if thriving economy is achieved.

I think next should be Pakistan building its own nuclear-powered sub with help from friends, It could be based on a hangor base design.

As mentioned in other PN thread, the following is the most practical choice...

PN ought to concentrate on new Chinese SSKs design with VLS (like KSS-III Dosan Ahn Changho-class) that are in development phase based on the 039C but heavier tonnage (+4k).

There are unsubstantiated rumours that the Chinese are developing mini reactor of this type & will be called SSK(N).

It would be ideal if PN went that approach & 6-8 such AIP-SSKs (N) with VLS would extensively enhance PN capabilities & refrain from having to make significant investments in SSNs to counter IN's SSN threat.

Further, Hangor & Augusta fleet will complement this type while PN is also in talks (in second phase) with Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri for their S800/1000 Shallow water SSP to replace midget subs.