AMCA News and Discussion

Hey ... finally at least a bit of a news!

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But sorry, I couldn't resist ... looks almost like a copy of the J-35! :ROFLMAO: Including the forward-hinging canopy the Chinese allegedly stole from the F-35!

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Deino

Do you not know the rules by now?

Chinese copy everything

Everything India does is 100% indigenous
 
Deino

Do you not know the rules by now?

Chinese copy everything

Everything India does is 100% indigenous


You mean this is the second paragraph of the general Internet law, directly following "The technological and moral superiority of the USA are inviolable and beyond question!"?
 
You mean this is the second paragraph of the general Internet law, directly following "The technological and moral superiority of the USA are inviolable and beyond question!"?

Correct, along with the answer to life, the universe and everything being 42....
 
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So excited about this. Looking forward to 20 years of development, cost overurns and Safran pretending they are giving India anything of value while milking the cow

Depends on how Safran structures the project and where they "use" the Indians. If the Indians were wise, they would keep their mouths shut, their ego's buried and spend their time listening and "learning" on the secrets of engine design. Find the pixie dust that has eluded them on the Kaveri project.

We, however know about the problems of the Indian ego and where it lands them...
 
Depends on how Safran structures the project and where they "use" the Indians. If the Indians were wise, they would keep their mouths shut, their ego's buried and spend their time listening and "learning" on the secrets of engine design. Find the pixie dust that has eluded them on the Kaveri project.

We, however know about the problems of the Indian ego and where it lands them...
Its early days but we have good history of collaboration with France so far..
 
A joint development makes only sense when both partners are equally capable … here India can contribute almost NOTHING but money, so from the standpoint of shared technology, India would benefit, while France would / should transfer … and that won‘t happen!

In fact NO country would sell or transfer its crown-jewels of technology for a few $$ and in fact $7 bin are peanuts in comparison to decades of research, investment and experience. Like I said so often already. India must do it alone, it‘s like walking. Calling each time for mom and dan or an uncle or aunt is still not walking alone.

And in mind of a few more Rafales, just forget it,it no argument for a ToT. Either you accept this and do your homework or you won‘t even more get neither an engine nor additional Rafales.

The terms of this deal will be solely made by France, period … discussing this again and again is like discussing what would change if the sun rises in the West! It won‘t ever happen.

terms of the deal were made jointly by India and France. India's deals are worth 1000s of jobs and revenue for the French industry. India will eventually master engine tech so no point in holding out.

Everything you said is hypotheticals.
 
AMCA design uses F414 as the engine. Now engine changes to Safran. Are both engines identical in lenght, weight and diameter ? If not then it needs time to redesign the current design
 
AMCA design uses F414 as the engine. Now engine changes to Safran. Are both engines identical in lenght, weight and diameter ? If not then it needs time to redesign the current design
It’s not just the AMCA but also the Tejas Mk. 2 that were planned to use the F414.

The F414 is 3.91 meters long by 0.89 meters in diameter, while the M88 is 3.538 meters long and 0.696 meters in diameter. So I’d expect a longer and larger diameter version of the M88 made, but France would want India to pay for the R&D with no promise of real ToT. In fact France already has an engine like this in development; the NGFE. The French FCAS is expected in 2040, so who knows when this NGFE will be available for the Indian AMCA.


At the same time if the WS-19 is similarly sized as the RD-93; 4.14 meters long by 1.02 meters in diameter, it will be easier for China to sooner reach the desired 110-120 kn max thrust; sources report the desired max thrust is 28,000 lb or 126 kn. (Nearly the same max thrust as the F-16 Block 52’s 29,000 lb max thrust on its F100-PW-129).

Fun fact, if the WS-19 achieves this desired max thrust of 28,000 lb, it will have achieved nearly the exact same max thrust as the legendary F-14D.

The WS-15 is said to be about 1.2 meters in diameter, and 5.05 meters in length, and possibly already in use on the J-20B, and in mass production the past two years, with a max thrust of 181.1 Kn or 40,200 lb. This is just shy of the F135 engines max thrust of 191 kn (43,000 lb). Chinese tech seems to be catching up to French tech and then the US tech, in the next 3-5 years and then 10 years respectively, with the US ahead with its variable cycle engines and higher reliability (longer time between overhauls in both the European and American engines than Chinese engines).

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with the US ahead with its variable cycle engines
We might not be that behind as people would assume, our VCE project started many years ago, together with the sixth gen projects or maybe even earlier.
 
We might not be that behind as people would assume, our VCE project started many years ago, together with the sixth gen projects or maybe even earlier.
It’s possibly, considering the roadmap for the development of higher thrust variable cycle engines have been known for years.

Even though the F110 is one of the highest thrust fighter engines in operation, GE has developed plans for further performance increases, should our customers need them. We have defined three growth steps that could increase F110 thrust to more than 40,000 pounds (178 kilo- Newtons ). The first step would deliver a 15 to 20 percent thrust increase to about 33,000 to 35,000 pounds (156 kilo- Newtons ). Engine ratings will depend on customer requirements. As an alternative, this step could provide a 40 percent increase in engine parts life at current thrust levels. Development work is already underway, and the engine will be qualified in 1998. Hardware modifications would include the high efficiency three stage integrally bladed disk - or blisk - fan adapted from the F118 engine on the B-2 bomber. We would also apply an advanced augmentor design using air-cooled radial flameholder and spraybar assemblies adopted from the YF120 and F414 engines. This low cost derivative design will greatly extend flameholder life. Survivability features could be incorporated to reduce engine thermal and radar signatures.



Our second growth step would build on Step One to deliver performance in the 36 to 37 thousand pound thrust range (about 160 kilo- Newtons ). To accomplish this, we would employ the latest CFM56 high-efficiency core. Dual use of this advanced engine core will lead to lower development costs and improved reliability for both engine programs. We would also introduce a long-life combustor with a laser-drilled multi-hole cooling pattern ; an air-cooled low pressure turbine, and a dual channel FADEC. While increasing performance and reliability, we also expect to cut engine acquisition cost compared with today’s F110 engine. This will be done by using Quality Function Deployment and Design to Cost methods to select those technologies that satisfy critical customer requirements at the lowest life cycle cost. In the third growth step, we could provide 40 thousand pounds of thrust by simply scaling up the blisk fan. However, the increased fan diameter and higher airflow would demand a larger inlet and structural modifications to existing F110 applications. Variable cycle engine technology, as first employed on our YF120 for the Advanced Tactical Fighter program, may also be used on the F110. A variable cycle engine can provide thrust tailoring throughout the flight envelope and delivers greater flexibility than a fixed cycle turbofan of the same size.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20170525214800/http://www.institut-strategie.fr/Moteurs_13.htm

But knowing it and achieving it, especially in the engine field will be proven out (for open acknowledgement) by way of the commercial field, once the CJ-1000 engines achieve similar efficiencies (thrust, life cycle, fuel consumption, etc.) to the latest engines on the latest Boeing and Airbus offerings.
 
Ask Chinese for WS-10 or WS-15.
Believe me this is more feasible than building your own or through partnership with Safron.

France will make billions infact ten of billions they must love trump
 

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