Babur-Class (MILGEM) Corvette | Updates & Discussion

[puttputt]

I think it's also more of a fait accompli. Subs are easier to "force multiply" than surface assets which PN cannot match ever ship for ship or even 3:1 ship for ship with IN.

Yep, but the PN could be giving surface-based ASW another look via USVs. Between NESCOM, NRDI, and the private sector, quite a few USV concepts are emerging, ranging in size and type (kamikaze to multi-mission).

I can see the PN studying the idea of a <300-ton USV for ASW; perhaps the hull cost would be low enough to provide vertical breathing room for a more robust subsystem fit (e.g., TAS).

I mean, that's been the constant trade-off: you're either paying for hull numbers or the subsystem fit. Currently, the PN opted for the numbers with their surface fleet plans, but at the cost of optimal subsystem fits (e.g., limited VLS, some ships lacking TAS, etc).

So, perhaps, USVs could be the pathway through which the PN can generate hull numbers for ASW, but ensure every ship in that sense is properly equipped for ASW missions.

 

[Oscar]

Yep, but the PN could be giving surface-based ASW another look via USVs. Between NESCOM, NRDI, and the private sector, quite a few USV concepts are emerging, ranging in size and type (kamikaze to multi-mission).

I can see the PN studying the idea of a <300-ton USV for ASW; perhaps the hull cost would be low enough to provide vertical breathing room for a more robust subsystem fit (e.g., TAS).

I mean, that's been the constant trade-off: you're either paying for hull numbers or the subsystem fit. Currently, the PN opted for the numbers with their surface fleet plans, but at the cost of optimal subsystem fits (e.g., limited VLS, some ships lacking TAS, etc).

So, perhaps, USVs could be the pathway through which the PN can generate hull numbers for ASW, but ensure every ship in that sense is properly equipped for ASW missions.

So my post on the other thread gets another foundation.
Availability is the priority versus Ability.

 

[Tank131]

I think the PN is in a weird position, really, i cannot think of a ship, available on the market, that can meet our needs well.

They all lack, in many ways.

I do think we missed the mark with the Babur's and perhaps, even Jinnah, not to mention 054'As.

One key thing, none of the PN's surface fleet is equipped with towed array sonar? i dont really understand the PN's intention for ASW. Yes, im aware we rely heavily on aircraft based solutions, but really, we only have a handful of aircraft, helicopters are next to none for ASW and drones are only just coming into the play, that said, towed array's bring their own merits to the game and are highly beneficial to ASW ops, lacking in them fleetwide is a pretty weird decision on the part of the PN. Heck, they even deleted them on the 054A for cost savings.

Next up is the VLS, the PN knows the swarm threat is real, the IN will try and overwhelm defenses- why did we end up with designs we know are limited in their defensive abilities?

I could go on, but i do think the israelis offer an interesting solution via the Sa'ar class

The PN surface has a similar wartime mandate to the Israeli's, protect maritime shipping within Israel's EEZ and also their offshore oil. Basically, we could translate this to "protect karachi and shipping".

Based off of this, particularly after '71, AD should have been the navy's priority.

View attachment 168391

The Sa'ar 6 is a pretty neat little ship, and i do think its a pretty good model for the PN for what they should have sought after in a ship.

They prioritise AD, while making cutbacks elsewhere. Now, im not saying the hull is suited for our missions, because, simply, its not. The calmer waters of the med work alot better for this ship, but ours are much choppier.

But, what im trying to say is, the PN really needed to put its focus on 2 key areas, ASW and Air Defence, yet, it seems like we ditched it all for deep sea blue water capability...? Why?

I understand the PN has a significant role in diplomacy, great, but at the expense of capability?

The PN would be FAR better suited by a heavily armed set of coastal corvettes, designed to form an iron bubble along the coastline to prevent any Indian misadventure. Alongside this, have your few ASW assets or even 'diplomacy ships', but the key here should have been defensive ability, which we're lacking in serious capacity.

Another design i talk about alot, which i think is literally perfect:

View attachment 168392

The danes paid less per ship than we did for our Baburs... why?

They re used all the costly stuff, VLS, missile launchers etc. They modularised them. They're not hull specific, rather, can be deployed fleetwide.

This is genuinely amazing. Imagine you had 4 frigates, with 1 being down at all times... why buy 4 sets of everything, just buy 3, and rotate as needed. The same with their corvettes, you can fit them with MK41s, or more missiles, or sonar, etc etc. Its genius. Why the PN refuses to emulate these highly successful models is beyond me. Even Damen offers a similar system.

Just imagine the PN had gone for such a solution on babur, it could have done the same for Jinnah, then any new missile boat or corvette class etc, the possibilities would be endless.
For example, the PN could find that in 3 years, a new VLS is available better suited to it, instead of taking a ship out of action, integrate it into a container, and swap it on the next port visit, within 5/6 hours, you took your 12 VLS babur, into a ship with 32, 64, etc. If one day, the sub threat was high, pn urgently needed more ASW assets, no bother, the ship in port can be equipped in a few hours with a modern ASW suite, and deployed at sea to meet the shortfall...the possibilities we're endless, yet us, we refuse to innovate and forward think...

View attachment 168393
View attachment 168394
All of this, removable, within a few hours, to be transferred to another ship...

StanFlex - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Having sat in a particular office in E-9(for delivering sweets to someone on my engagement and the chit chat between it and beyond), along with having a particularly strong connection with PN I can make a few guesses as to why the approach was taken.

Part of it was leadership especially during the PNS Mehran debacle era and part of it was lack of confidence in PN competence until the last few years(irrelevant to whether the opinions from the more prevalent branches was merited).

The F-22Ps were not the first choice or the second but a combined “Buy China” push that Musharraf or rather some sycophants close to him pushed for - also why you have the ZDKs.

Beyond that the PN was focused on trying to create more simple indigenous solutions through buying designs outright from China(depending upon what they were willing to provide at low cost with financing.., as we both have established contrary to popular belief it’s very much not deeper than oceans but business).

Back in the day when the Alamgir was taken the understanding was originally to get more OHPs and get the turks to upgrade combat systems and get ESSM or SYLVER or CAMM. OHPs would also bring the benefit of bringing the towed array as it was installed on the original long hull OHPs - whether PN chose to retain it or not is not known but if they selected to and were authorized you were ideally going to have 4 ships with towed array and decent AD as well.

Fate - and geopolitics have different ideas.

Fast forward to 2011 and Asif Zardari’s rape of Pakistan’s economy following the 2008 global crash all plans hinged on Chinese equipment including some rather poor performing Z-9s which do their job better as transports than ASW.

As the more pragmatic elements did start taking over PN the biggest concern was how to replace the leaky rust buckets in the Type-21s from a pure number of hulls and how to also provide more “muscle” support to the PMSA from both a piracy perspective but More so a real threat emerging of IN “boarding” Pakistan bound ships(yeah they were thinking of this) in a blockage move to be able to contest that somewhat.

So as funds get outlined it goes - Hull - primary sensors with modularity to support add ons- CIWS - ASuW -Close in ASW and then perhaps something of SAMs. What you suggest still requires more investment in paying for the full system even if its lego where the PN logic is more source from multiple places for redundancy and then get every hull to some baseline.

There is also another “groupthink” that has emerged.
In conflict the A2/AD will act more to not just secure ports but also PN sea assets with the PAF providing more longer ranged air cover.

I have doubts that swarming has been considered to the level by reliance on the A2/AD net to keep the longest vectors of the IN at bay in the fashion of Inshallah.

ASW then has fallen to a SOSUS net(which has turned out to be surprisingly effective or IN subs have zero noise discipline) , hull mount sensors , whatever is current P-3 to Sultan transition.

For that matter - IN in itself despite their better shinier toys seems to also find some level of threat in A2/AD and hoped to rely on IAF for precision strikes but best laid plans meet failure of systems for both mice and men.

Which also explains why there is a thinking shift on shelf and new brahmos batches for In having fully baked land attack modes.

I think the current state of PNs issues have numerous causes. Firstly PN doesnt have access to the suppliers that the Israeli and Danes have. They have to make due with China, Turkey, and to some extent, italy. The saving grace currently is that BOTH turkey and China are developing their militaries and tech at a rapid pace, at just the right time for Pakistan to be in a reasonable position.

Second is that PN funds, limited as they were necessitated F-22P and to a great extent, the loadout of Tughrails. The timing of the Babur project also influenced its layout to an extent (MIDLAS and Hisar RF were not available). Additionally it seems the lack of availability of a satisfactory off the shelf ship born helicopter (or a western chopper at least) has limited aerial options for ASW. Ideally PN would seek NH-90 or AW-101 for Baburs and JCF though these and seek more Z-9 or Z-20 for Baburs.

Issue is where does PN go from here? First issue is that JCF is not finalized. Getting 16 cells VLS to be MIDLAS rather than GWS.26/35 is very important. Secondly, plan for refitting the BABUR GWS.26/35 with two 4 cell MIDLAS (8 cells total) in short order. EITHER CAMM-ER needs married to MIDLAS or PN needs to move to G/M-1 as soon as its available. These need to happen in background but F-22P refit is desperately needed.

 

[ghazi52]

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[ghazi52]

PNS KHAIBAR (F-282), the second ship of the #BABUR (PN MILGEM) Class Corvettes, for the Pakistan Navy, has set sail on its maiden voyage to Karachi, Pakistan .

PNS KHAIBAR (F-282), the second ship of the #BABUR (PN MILGEM) Class Corvettes, for the Pakistan Navy, has set sail on its maiden voyage to Karachi, Pakistan .

 

[Aamir Hussain]

PN never truly embarked organic shipboard ASW/AShW helos till Z-9C's. Yes some Sea Kings were embarked on Fleet Replenishment ships but as Transport/SAR helos. Briefly, the Lynx was bought for shipboard ops but then it mysteriously fizzled out.

IMHO, PN has not integrated helo borne ASW operations in its operational doctrine. It basically banks upon shore based ASW assets to give Anti sub cover. This in turns says a lot about independent seaborne ops by it surface fleet sans air cover.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

PN never truly embarked organic shipboard ASW/AShW helos till Z-9C's. Yes some Sea Kings were embarked on Fleet Replenishment ships but as Transport/SAR helos.

Actually PN had AShW role Sea kings too acquired in late 70s or 80s. Probably you are right these were embarked on Fleet replenishment ship Or land based. There used to exercises too in which these helos were firing AShW exocet missiles. Primary Ashw was through PAF No.8 Squadron Haiders witth Mirage 5/ AM39 exocet. However yes for ASW, no real / potent attempt.

 

[PakistaniDefender]

I think the PN is in a weird position, really, i cannot think of a ship, available on the market, that can meet our needs well.

They all lack, in many ways.

I do think we missed the mark with the Babur's and perhaps, even Jinnah, not to mention 054'As.

One key thing, none of the PN's surface fleet is equipped with towed array sonar? i dont really understand the PN's intention for ASW. Yes, im aware we rely heavily on aircraft based solutions, but really, we only have a handful of aircraft, helicopters are next to none for ASW and drones are only just coming into the play, that said, towed array's bring their own merits to the game and are highly beneficial to ASW ops, lacking in them fleetwide is a pretty weird decision on the part of the PN. Heck, they even deleted them on the 054A for cost savings.

Next up is the VLS, the PN knows the swarm threat is real, the IN will try and overwhelm defenses- why did we end up with designs we know are limited in their defensive abilities?

I could go on, but i do think the israelis offer an interesting solution via the Sa'ar class

The PN surface has a similar wartime mandate to the Israeli's, protect maritime shipping within Israel's EEZ and also their offshore oil. Basically, we could translate this to "protect karachi and shipping".

Based off of this, particularly after '71, AD should have been the navy's priority.

View attachment 168391

The Sa'ar 6 is a pretty neat little ship, and i do think its a pretty good model for the PN for what they should have sought after in a ship.

They prioritise AD, while making cutbacks elsewhere. Now, im not saying the hull is suited for our missions, because, simply, its not. The calmer waters of the med work alot better for this ship, but ours are much choppier.

But, what im trying to say is, the PN really needed to put its focus on 2 key areas, ASW and Air Defence, yet, it seems like we ditched it all for deep sea blue water capability...? Why?

I understand the PN has a significant role in diplomacy, great, but at the expense of capability?

The PN would be FAR better suited by a heavily armed set of coastal corvettes, designed to form an iron bubble along the coastline to prevent any Indian misadventure. Alongside this, have your few ASW assets or even 'diplomacy ships', but the key here should have been defensive ability, which we're lacking in serious capacity.

Another design i talk about alot, which i think is literally perfect:

View attachment 168392

The danes paid less per ship than we did for our Baburs... why?

They re used all the costly stuff, VLS, missile launchers etc. They modularised them. They're not hull specific, rather, can be deployed fleetwide.

This is genuinely amazing. Imagine you had 4 frigates, with 1 being down at all times... why buy 4 sets of everything, just buy 3, and rotate as needed. The same with their corvettes, you can fit them with MK41s, or more missiles, or sonar, etc etc. Its genius. Why the PN refuses to emulate these highly successful models is beyond me. Even Damen offers a similar system.

Just imagine the PN had gone for such a solution on babur, it could have done the same for Jinnah, then any new missile boat or corvette class etc, the possibilities would be endless.
For example, the PN could find that in 3 years, a new VLS is available better suited to it, instead of taking a ship out of action, integrate it into a container, and swap it on the next port visit, within 5/6 hours, you took your 12 VLS babur, into a ship with 32, 64, etc. If one day, the sub threat was high, pn urgently needed more ASW assets, no bother, the ship in port can be equipped in a few hours with a modern ASW suite, and deployed at sea to meet the shortfall...the possibilities we're endless, yet us, we refuse to innovate and forward think...

View attachment 168393
View attachment 168394
All of this, removable, within a few hours, to be transferred to another ship...

StanFlex - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We need Type 052Ds now

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

4 Type 052D are needed to sure up Air Protective Umbrella , as they have a bit more Multi Role Missiles on board

 

[studsmart]

4 Type 052D are needed to sure up Air Protective Umbrella , as they have a bit more Multi Role Missiles on board

i would say 6 ---

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Roughly US$ 3 billion for squadron of Type 52D's!!! Where will be get that kind of money and also the operational costs of operating a 8,000 unit.

 

[Michael]

Roughly US$ 3 billion for squadron of Type 52D's!!! Where will be get that kind of money and also the operational costs of operating a 8,000 unit.

This price estimate is significantly inaccurate.

The cost of a Type 052D destroyer is approximately 3.5 billion RMB, and later improved versions will cost more, around 4 billion RMB.

The export version's price depends on which version of the Type 052D is used as the basis. The approximate purchase price is between 1 and 2 billion US dollars. The exact price depends on the additional service package included in the purchase, such as the quantity of weapons and ammunition, training, logistics, and maintenance support, etc.

Of course, in reality, it's impossible to purchase only one Type 052D destroyer. If we use a purchase of four destroyers as a baseline, the cost would be approximately 6 billion US dollars.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

See f***ing House in Bani Gala. We need Type 52Ds now

? How on earth Banigala(a village) came up in Type-52D Discussion?

Yes we do need more powerful warships but why this regime isn't buying anything at all. Its been like 4 or 5 years the regime is in power but absolutely no procurements at all. ZERO! Last major procurement was done by previous regime, getting J-10Cs / Pl-15s, the ones which laid the basis for our victory in air battle. New regime acted as if they did something, but infact real credit goes to previous one.
I don't understand why the new regime is not paying any attention to navy. knowing very well that next time navies will be involved as indians have clearly said this too out and loud.

 

[Toxic]

I don't understand what PN wants to do with the baburs Seeing as the JCF is essentially Babur+ why not go all in on the JCF from the start?

 

[Yasser76]

I don't understand what PN wants to do with the baburs Seeing as the JCF is essentially Babur+ why not go all in on the JCF from the start?

Possibly because we needed to give the Turks an order of some sort before they helped with JCF design, unsure though