Since I hit a nerve!? However you are correct in one particular point, the final part was stupid and simply inappropriate, as such I need to apologise for this stupid remark!
CCS clears AMCA for IAF
- Thread starter kaku
- Start date
Since I hit a nerve!? However you are correct in one particular point, the final part was stupid and simply inappropriate, as such I need to apologise for this stupid remark!
kmc_chacko
Registered Member
Good thing is present Govt is inclined towards indigenization, so everything in upgradation of SS-30 will help in development of Tejas projects.
kaku
Registered Member
- Thread starter
- #155
No one going to reveal classified data to public.
You don’t reveal data for public products, leave alone of military product.
But if someone want to do the research, there is enough data in public that able to give glimpse in the capabilities it able to achieve.
And they have to do 17000 flying hours to achieve such capability.
But when people suggest there nation’s project able to achieve similar capability within 2000 hours, that’s a stupidity at best.
Who said F-35 is a failed project? Don't try to put word in my mouth.
MirageBlue
Registered Member
Back in early 2021, then ADA Chief, Dr Girish Deodhare (himself one of the pioneers of the LCA Tejas' FBW FCS) had said that AMCA design was frozen and it's PDRs (Prelim Design Reviews) had been cleared.
He talked about high level of commonality between Tejas Mk2 and AMCA LRUs which will help a great deal in speeding up AMCA development.
He also mentioned that the IAF had finally frozen all it's Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirements (PSQRs). This happened in 2021.
So now look at it logically in steps as he narrates it:
1- IAF froze it's PSQRs for the AMCA in conjunction with ADA and HAL
2- AMCA Design was frozen after almost a decade of Project Design Studies
3- PDR level reviews were completed, including Aircraft level PDR (in 2021)
4- Wing design was progressing at HAL
5- Full scale model for measuring stealth characteristics was being built
6- He estimated that AMCA roll-out would happen in 2024. But that was wildly optimistic because CDRs had not yet been completed and there would be no CCS sanction till all CDRs had been completed and the file submitted to the MoD.
7- Many labs including NAL (which does a lot of design and aerodynamics work for ADA and HAL) were involved in the stealth related technologies for AMCA
So that brings me back to another point. To those fools who talk about copying a Chinese design whose internet images with a newer configuration appeared a year ago, how the hell was ADA/HAL able to freeze the current AMCA design in 2021 after doing all the required studies when the J-31 or J-35 or whatever design itself wasn't clear back then?
It's obvious that the AMCA and J-31/J-35 programs have nothing in common except for 5th gen requirements. Two totally unrelated programs with every reason to hide what they were doing from each other, arrived at somewhat similar looking designs, to solve common problems.
Both clearly were inspired by the F-35 which also faced similar requirements and had to do the hard job of finding the solutions first.
In fact, the Indian Navy wanted an AMCA based 5th gen stealthy carrier fighter but ADA/HAL did several studies that indicated that it would be better to go with a different design that wasn't so stealth optimized. I have heard it was something to do with pressure recovery issues for an IWB equipped fighter versus a 4.5 gen TEDBF design that didn't feature IWB.
That is how TEDBF was born. If all they were doing was copying a design that they didn't even have access to, they'd have an Indian Navy variant of AMCA as well, just as there is a PLAN variant of the J-31.
He talked about high level of commonality between Tejas Mk2 and AMCA LRUs which will help a great deal in speeding up AMCA development.
He also mentioned that the IAF had finally frozen all it's Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirements (PSQRs). This happened in 2021.
So now look at it logically in steps as he narrates it:
1- IAF froze it's PSQRs for the AMCA in conjunction with ADA and HAL
2- AMCA Design was frozen after almost a decade of Project Design Studies
3- PDR level reviews were completed, including Aircraft level PDR (in 2021)
4- Wing design was progressing at HAL
5- Full scale model for measuring stealth characteristics was being built
6- He estimated that AMCA roll-out would happen in 2024. But that was wildly optimistic because CDRs had not yet been completed and there would be no CCS sanction till all CDRs had been completed and the file submitted to the MoD.
7- Many labs including NAL (which does a lot of design and aerodynamics work for ADA and HAL) were involved in the stealth related technologies for AMCA
So that brings me back to another point. To those fools who talk about copying a Chinese design whose internet images with a newer configuration appeared a year ago, how the hell was ADA/HAL able to freeze the current AMCA design in 2021 after doing all the required studies when the J-31 or J-35 or whatever design itself wasn't clear back then?
It's obvious that the AMCA and J-31/J-35 programs have nothing in common except for 5th gen requirements. Two totally unrelated programs with every reason to hide what they were doing from each other, arrived at somewhat similar looking designs, to solve common problems.
Both clearly were inspired by the F-35 which also faced similar requirements and had to do the hard job of finding the solutions first.
In fact, the Indian Navy wanted an AMCA based 5th gen stealthy carrier fighter but ADA/HAL did several studies that indicated that it would be better to go with a different design that wasn't so stealth optimized. I have heard it was something to do with pressure recovery issues for an IWB equipped fighter versus a 4.5 gen TEDBF design that didn't feature IWB.
That is how TEDBF was born. If all they were doing was copying a design that they didn't even have access to, they'd have an Indian Navy variant of AMCA as well, just as there is a PLAN variant of the J-31.
That_Guy
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Says who? There is no set criteria.
I agree it takes a while, but this is completely made up. We simply don't have the data to prove that they are or aren't getting enough information within their own set time limit.
kaku
Registered Member
- Thread starter
- #159
F-35 Completes Most Comprehensive Flight Test Program in Aviation History
The F-35 program has accomplished the final developmental test flight of the System Development and Demonstration (SDD) phase of the program. "Completing F-35 SDD flight test is the culmination of...
That_Guy
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
That's how long it took for the F-35, a notoriously cost overrun and delayed fighter jet.F-35 Completes Most Comprehensive Flight Test Program in Aviation History
The F-35 program has accomplished the final developmental test flight of the System Development and Demonstration (SDD) phase of the program. "Completing F-35 SDD flight test is the culmination of...news.lockheedmartin.com
That doesn't meant all nations have the same criteria, or issues.
You're assuming a lot of things.
First you're assuming that the 17000 hours was a set perimeter when your own article only suggests that this is just how long the fighter flew without issues before it was basically cleared.
Second you're assuming that this is how long it should take other programs, which is a weird expectation to have considering that's not how any of this works.
You cannot assume things based upon a single circumstantial point.
indushek
Trusted Member
I might be totally wrong, but the psyche part needs a clear and thorough overhaul.
Always looking up to someone (West or China or Pakistan etc), isn't going to help us (which makes us reactive). Develop the killer instinct and shed the 'looking at past' syndrome, we have inculcated heavily. Mistakes were made, but they need not be repeated.
Till the mind doesn't get set, however strong you are and how economically able you get, you will mean nothing. When you have idiots saying, 'I don't see why India needs to be a superpower or we want to show other cheek or why do we need military, we just need police' , this is what we will be. Period.
Am not discounting the funds part or technology part believe me, but I strongly believe we have been held down by ourselves. A bucket of crabs, is what we are. The left pulled everyone to certain extent, and the right is doing it now. There is no clear path, and everyone wants to be 'the hero'.
The one who wants to succeed , is never apologetic about it or gives excuses for failures. We have lot of senile septuagenarian baggage hanging around, who will never want anything good for us (Without realizing it).
Oscar
Moderator
Whatever comes out to ease of manufacturing and capabilities in balance should be the logical choice but we know that isn’t always the case with local produce in India.
Pundit Pikachu
Registered Member
Straight from the Horse's Mouth
Modi Ji confirms that CCS has given clearance to AMCA funds
Modi Ji confirms that CCS has given clearance to AMCA funds
Surely not, and at least for now and many years to come I haven't heard a counterargument against what I said: The one is flying since years in several prototypes whereas the the other is still a project.
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