Chinese Missile News

[DevendraRajput]

Since you guys trust ChatGPT. Here are chatGPT responses...





In short, no, you can not wish away Fire Control Radar and hope that a space based system like SAR sat or SBIS will replace it to hit a fast moving airborne target like an air plane (let alone something like a jet plane).

 

[Hendarto]

Since you guys trust ChatGPT. Here are chatGPT responses...

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In short, no, you can not wish away Fire Control Radar and hope that a space based system like SAR sat or SBIS will replace it to hit a fast moving airborne target like an air plane (let alone something like a jet plane).

It is elementary knowing where your target is so you can direct your missile toward it IT IS AS SIMPLE AS CAPICI WHY DO YOU NEED RADAR CONTROL?. YOU NEED IT ON TERMINAL GUIDANCE MAYBE? BUT FINDING YOUR TARGET CAN BE DONE WITH SAR iT SEND THE INFO EITHER DIRECTLY TO THE MISSILE OR THE CONTROL GUIDANCE.

IT IS THE SAME PRINCIPLE OF ANY SAM GUIDANCE! EVER HEARD OF SEMIACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE? NOT ALL MISSILE ARE ACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE

 

[Hendarto]

Ask this. "Can SBIS replace a fire control radar and guide a Surface to Air missile to its fast moving target"?

You will get your answer.

YOU ASK MISLEADING QUESTION !

 

[Hendarto]

@Hendarto Nice one bud.

thanks bud!

 

[DevendraRajput]

It is elementary knowing where your target is so you can direct your missile toward it IT IS AS SIMPLE AS CAPICI WHY DO YOU NEED RADAR CONTROL?. YOU NEED IT ON TERMINAL GUIDANCE MAYBE? BUT FINDING YOUR TARGET CAN BE DONE WITH SAR iT SEND THE INFO EITHER DIRECTLY TO THE MISSILE OR THE CONTROL GUIDANCE.

Its ..... not elementary, my dear Watson. Specially when the target moves around like an airplane. So no, you can not know in advance where your target will be when your target moves at 900 KM/hour and manuvers too. You need mid course corrections. Something INS by itself does not have.

IT IS THE SAME PRINCIPLE OF ANY SAM GUIDANCE! EVER HEARD OF SEMIACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE? NOT ALL MISSILE ARE ACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE

In semi active radar guidance, fire control radar is even more important. Because there is no active seeker radar in the missile, so entire terminal trajectory of missile is based on an external emitter.

YOU ASK MISLEADING QUESTION !

What is misleading about that question?

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

It is elementary knowing where your target is so you can direct your missile toward it IT IS AS SIMPLE AS CAPICI WHY DO YOU NEED RADAR CONTROL?. YOU NEED IT ON TERMINAL GUIDANCE MAYBE? BUT FINDING YOUR TARGET CAN BE DONE WITH SAR iT SEND THE INFO EITHER DIRECTLY TO THE MISSILE OR THE CONTROL GUIDANCE.

IT IS THE SAME PRINCIPLE OF ANY SAM GUIDANCE! EVER HEARD OF SEMIACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE? NOT ALL MISSILE ARE ACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE

Targeting information is not get by SBIS systems or SAR radars, its needs X band radars to have the Targeting information for interceptions, SAR radars are worked in different bandwidth can't give Targeting information to interceptors

And SEMIACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE WAS PAST TECHNOLOGY WHEN ACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE TECHNOLOGIES WEREN'T MATURE ENOUGH TO PUT IN SERVICE

MOST OF SAMS AND AAMs ARE USING ACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE IN MODERN MILITARIES NOT SEMIACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE

 

[Hendarto]

Its ..... not elementary, my dear Watson. Specially when the target moves around like an airplane. So no, you can not know in advance where your target will be when your target moves at 900 KM/hour and manuvers too. You need mid course corrections. Something INS by itself does not have.



In semi active radar guidance, fire control radar is even more important. Because there is no active seeker radar in the missile, so entire terminal trajectory of missile is based on an external emitter.


What is misleading about that question?

I guess you never heard of missile data link guidance. The target acquisition satellite will communicate with AWAC, Communication UAV, Ground station etc. Then they in turn send command to the missile. Here is a primer for you

1. Data Link Guidance:
   • Definition: Data link guidance involves real-time communication between the missile and a ground station, aircraft, or another platform.
   • How It Works:
     • The missile receives continuous updates from the external source via the data link.
     • These updates include information about the target’s position, velocity, and other relevant data.
     • The missile adjusts its trajectory based on this real-time information, improving its accuracy.
   • Advantages:
     • Flexibility: Data link guidance allows mid-course corrections, making it suitable for engaging moving targets.
     • Improved Accuracy: Real-time updates enhance precision.
     • Beyond Line of Sight: The missile can engage targets beyond the line of sight.
   • Applications:
     • Anti-Ship Missiles: Data link guidance helps track and engage moving naval vessels.
     • Air-to-Ground Missiles: Enhances accuracy against ground targets.
     • Cooperative Attacks: Multiple missiles can coordinate their actions using data links.

Remember that data link guidance is just one of several guidance systems used in modern missiles. Each system has its strengths and limitations, and their selection depends on the specific mission requirements.

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[Hendarto]

Targeting information is not get by SBIS systems or SAR radars, its needs X band radars to have the Targeting information for interceptions, SAR radars are worked in different bandwidth can't give Targeting information to interceptors

And SEMIACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE WAS PAST TECHNOLOGY WHEN ACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE TECHNOLOGIES WEREN'T MATURE ENOUGH TO PUT IN SERVICE

MOST OF SAMS AND AAMs ARE USING ACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE IN MODERN MILITARIES NOT SEMIACTIVE RADAR GUIDANCE

That is not true.There is no such thing as an outdated SARH. You cannot rely completely on the onboard radar because the missile diameter is small the T/R module it can carry is limited, resulting in short-range missiles. It can't provide an update, and is susceptible to spoofing, jamming EW
etc Here is the more detailed advantage of SARH
Let’s explore the advantages of semi-active radar guidance in missile systems:

1. Precision and Accuracy:
   • Semi-active radar guidance relies on ground-based radar systems or other external radar sources.
   • The radar illuminates the target, and the missile homes in on the reflected radar signals.
   • This method provides high accuracy, especially during the terminal phase of the missile’s flight.
   • It allows precise targeting of specific points on the target, minimizing collateral damage.
2. Cost-Effectiveness:
   • Semi-active radar-guided missiles are often more cost-effective than active radar-guided missiles.
   • Since the missile itself doesn’t need an onboard radar system, it can be simpler and less expensive to manufacture.
3. Long Range:
   • Semi-active radar guidance enables missiles to engage targets at extended ranges.
   • The ground-based radar can track targets from a considerable distance, allowing the missile to receive continuous guidance updates.
4. Beyond Line of Sight (BLOS):
   • The radar signal can reach targets beyond the line of sight.
   • This capability is crucial for engaging targets over the horizon or behind obstacles.
5. Cooperative Attacks:
   • Multiple missiles can be guided simultaneously by the same radar source.
   • This coordination allows for cooperative attacks on multiple targets.
6. Reduced Vulnerability:
   • Since the missile doesn’t emit its own radar signals, it remains less detectable by enemy radar warning systems.
   • Reduced emissions enhance the missile’s survivability.

In summary, semi-active radar guidance combines precision, cost-effectiveness, and long-range capabilities, making it a valuable choice for various missile applications.

The basic concept of SARH is that since almost all detection and tracking systems consist of a radar system, duplicating this hardware on the missile itself is redundant.

The weight of a transmitter reduces the range of any flying object, so passive systems have greater reach. In addition, the resolution of a radar is strongly related to the physical size of the antenna, and in the small nose cone of a missile there isn't enough room to provide the sort of accuracy needed for guidance.[3] Instead the larger radar dish on the ground or launch aircraft will provide the needed signal and tracking logic, and the missile simply has to listen to the signal reflected from the target and point itself in the right direction.

Additionally, the missile will listen rearward to the launch platform's transmitted signal as a reference, enabling it to avoid some kinds of radar jamming distractions offered by the target.

 

[Hendarto]

I will end this discourse with a paragraph from a CSIS article on the Yaogan 41 SAR satellite. You can believe whatever you want it doesn't change the fact that China now has the tool to track even stealth bombers. and the system is evolving for better resolution, better communication, etc

No Place to Hide: A Look into China’s Geosynchronous Surveillance Capabilities

In December 2023, China launched a new optical surveillance satellite, called Yaogan-41, that may allow it to keep watch around the clock on the entire Indo-Pacific region from geostationary orbit.

www.csis.org

In addition to these optical surveillance satellites, China operates one synthetic-aperture radar (SAR) satellite in GEO, called Ludi Tance-4 (Land Exploration-4 in English). Launched in August 2023, it is the world’s first and, currently, only GEO satellite with a SAR payload. The resolution of Ludi Tance-4 is 20 meters.

The advantage of SAR is that it can see through clouds and at night. Like the three Gaofen satellites and Yaogan-41, China claims that the Ludi Tance-4’s mission is purely civilian and aimed at providing information about land resources, disaster prevention and response, and forestry applications.

Q4: How will China use the Yaogan-41 capability?

A4: Unlike the United States, Europe, and Russia, China has emphasized the development and expansion of a high-resolution GEO optical and SAR surveillance capability. While there are civilian applications for such capabilities, those applications can generally be served by satellites operating at lower altitudes, which are easier and cheaper to reach and provide higher-resolution images than GEO alternatives.

Additionally, civilian applications such as agriculture, environmental monitoring, and disaster preparedness do not typically necessitate the extra costs associated with persistent coverage, as these applications have no movement detection and tracking requirements. Take for instance, the equivalent civilian U.S. and European satellite programs, Landsat and Copernicus, respectively, which both operate satellites in LEO.

Beijing, which probably assesses the greatest threats to its security and freedom of movement will come from the Indo-Pacific, has determined that it will pay a premium to obtain persistence and the ability to detect change in near-real time across the region.

Using 50-meter resolution data from the Gaofen-4 satellite during a presentation at the International Astronautical Congress in 2016, China demonstrated it could identify ship trails, which form when ship exhaust interacts with clouds in the lower troposphere. Persistency also allows for real-time tracking, meaning that whatever China identifies it could track using the same capability.

Paired with its existing GEO optical surveillance capabilities, Yaogan-41's increased resolution means that China will be able to more easily identify and track U.S. and allied naval forces in the Indian and Pacific Oceans than it ever could before.

This increased resolution may give China the ability to identify and track even smaller objects, not just ships, but airborne assets like fighter aircraft and bombers as well. While stealth technology can help aircraft evade detection by radar, it is less effective against optical sensors, as demonstrated when a Google Maps user spotted a B-2 stealth bomber flying over Missouri. Pairing data from Yaogan-41 and China’s legacy GEO surveillance satellites with trained artificial intelligence (AI) algorithms would likely automate and speed up identifying objects of interest. For example, the New York Times has already used a similar approach, pairing satellite imagery and AI technology to identify bomb craters in Gaza.

 

[DevendraRajput]

I guess you never heard of missile data link guidance. The target acquisition satellite will communicate with AWAC, Communication UAV, Ground station etc. Then they in turn send command to the missile. Here is a primer for you

For the n-th time, satellite based resources like remote sensing satellites and SAR satellites and SBIS can not provide accurate enough data in real time to navigate missile to an airborne target like a fuel tanker or AWACS (let alone a fighter jet). You even have chat-gpt response on it.

Since you trust chatGPT a lot... Here is what ChatGPT has to say about it.

 

[DevendraRajput]

Using 50-meter resolution data from the Gaofen-4 satellite during a presentation at the International Astronautical Congress in 2016, China demonstrated it could identify ship trails, which form when ship exhaust interacts with clouds in the lower troposphere. Persistency also allows for real-time tracking, meaning that whatever China identifies it could track using the same capability.

We have sub 50 meter resolution data present for ages! Worldview-3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldView-3) provides a 31 cm resolution. And google earth actually uses worldview imagery. So no, you can not use that to target a fighter or an airplane.

You want to know why? Your Gaofen-4 is in geosynchronous orbit. That is about 35,000 KM up in the sky. So lets calculate the latency involved here.

You will need one round trip of 35,000 KM (total 70,000 KM) for light (or radar waves) reflected from target to reach that satellite and images from the satellite to reach earth station or AWACS or whatever.

This is about 0.234 seconds of latency. (70,000 / 300,000)

A plane like C-17 Globemaster III moving at 900 KM / hour (that is 250 Meter per second) in air will move by 50 meter in that time alone. And this is assuming ABSOLUTELY NO latency in any processing (either in satellite or in ground station) and no propagation delay in updating missile.

So no matter what you do, you will have this huge 50 meter inaccuracy in the position of a Globemaster III (which is 50 meter long). Now Globemaster III is not the fastest or smallest ship in the airfleet, it is actually among the largest ones. If you can not track Globemaster III C-17 with enough accuracy and have 50 meter error just by back and forth from GEO (assuming no delay in computation), what will you do against a much smaller and much faster moving B-2?

@gambit Your opinion?

 

[DevendraRajput]

This increased resolution may give China the ability to identify and track even smaller objects, not just ships, but airborne assets like fighter aircraft and bombers as well. While stealth technology can help aircraft evade detection by radar, it is less effective against optical sensors, as demonstrated when a Google Maps user spotted a B-2 stealth bomber flying over Missouri. Pairing data from Yaogan-41 and China’s legacy GEO surveillance satellites with trained artificial intelligence (AI) algorithms would likely automate and speed up identifying objects of interest. For example, the New York Times has already used a similar approach, pairing satellite imagery and AI technology to identify bomb craters in Gaza.

Even if one takes whatever this cock and bull story at face value, this still does not answer what will you do at night OR during cloudy weather? This is all talk about optical domain.

 

[Harbyharb]

Even if one takes whatever this cock and bull story at face value, this still does not answer what will you do at night?

From what I understand the EO part of the Yaogan constellation, within PLA's OODA loop in the West Pacific, primarily concerns campaign-level targets, typically bomber fleets releasing long-range stand-off cruise missiles such as LRASM, as well as tankers and AEW active within the AO, which because of the nature of their missions requiring substantial altitude makes EO satellites more viable.

During peacetime long-range economic transits of tactical assets also occur at such altitudes and usually during good weather, which is how they got the footage of the satellite tracking F-22 moving through the air.

 

[DevendraRajput]

From what I understand the EO part of the Yaogan constellation, within PLA's OODA loop in the West Pacific, primarily concerns campaign-level targets, typically bomber fleets releasing long-range stand-off cruise missiles such as LRASM, as well as tankers and AEW active within the AO, which because of the nature of their missions requiring substantial altitude makes EO satellites more viable.

I totally agree that a geosynchronous EO satellite is absolutely invaluable in continuous surveillance of an area and for air to ground operation and even monitoring airspace for intrusion. All of this is fine and great use of EO satellite.

What I find unbelievable is that EO satellite will be used to replace fire control radar to guide a surface to air missile to an airborne target.

That is not going to work.

 

[Hendarto]

Even if one takes whatever this cock and bull story at face value, this still does not answer what will you do at night OR during cloudy weather? This is all talk about optical domain.

I already answer your question CAN'T YOU NOT READ! OR MAYBE IT IS TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOU EVEN TO UNDERSTAND IT IS CLEARLY SPELLED OUT!
IT IS LIKE TALKING TO THE WALL! FORGET ABOUT IT GO DROWN IN YOUR IGNORANCE


CSIS IS WELL REGARDED THINK TANK funded by the likes of Lougheed, Northrop, Boeing, etc Who are you nobody to dismiss them? They are well-funded hire the best analysts and often provide input to US government policy
CSIS (Center for Strategic and International Studies) is a bipartisan, nonprofit organization that provides research, analysis, and policy recommendations on global issues. Founded in 1962, CSIS conducts research across various domains, including defense, security, health, energy, and more12. Their work spans critical topics such as China, Russia, Ukraine, water security, and other international affairs. Through reports, events, podcasts, and video series, CSIS contributes to informed decision-making and understanding of global challenges.