Danger of US giving Saudis F35s: Golden opportunity for normalization slipping away? - analysis

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Al-Watan newspaper, a Saudi Arabian official newspaper. The date of the article is November 9.

The official Saudi Arabian press does not usually report on military deals until they are finalized.

1 week away from D Day.

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@AZ_HighCountry @F-22Raptor @Hamartia Antidote opinions about what I wrote earlier in this thread and this news?

I haven't read your previous posts but I don't see the issue as Saudi is a past buyer of US fighters and the only new fighter we are exporting these days is the F-35...so not sure what the puzzle is. I'm sure we'd rather sell them the F-35 than see them with a fleet of Chinese fighters.
 
Apologies. I've been down sick now the past few days. Starting to feel up to it again. Will read thread in its entirety.
No problem at all. Give your time and feel free to disagree. The point of forums after all.

But with all due respect, looking at it from a purely objective perspective and criteria, as well as available data, US foreign policy in the region being this beholden to Israel (just 1 single country with a small population and an economy barely larger than UAE), at the expense of the Arab world (combined almost 4th largest economy in the world - in the future even larger given demographics and future population size), not to mention natural riches/resources/minerals (KSA alone has more natural wealth than every single country on earth not named 8 times larger Russia and 4.3 times larger USA).

I am not saying that the US should abandon ties with Israel but rather the US establishment (politicians) should not be this beholden to it because it does not serve wider or long-term US interests.

Look no further than the mess in Iraq (US invasion of Iraq back in 2003) which Netanyahu was one of the biggest proponents of.

Now if the US, due to Israel/Jewish American/AIPAC lobby prevents KSA and USA (partners longer than the existence of modern-day Israel as a state) from increasing their military, economic and political ties, it would not only be a disservice to both but it will inevitably force KSA towards China and with it much of the region.

@TruthSeeker another American that I remember.

I haven't read your previous posts but I don't see the issue as Saudi is a past buyer of US fighters and the only new fighter we are exporting these days is the F-35...so not sure what the puzzle is.
Genuinely interested in what American citizens have to say about some of the points that I raised in post 4 and 6 of this thread.

Also see my reply to @AZ_HighCountry

The puzzle is that the Israeli lobby/AIPAC and Israel is actively trying to prevent KSA-USA military ties from growing in strength due to the undeclared official US foreign policy of Israel having a military advantage in the region.

Jewish media has already gone crazy in large part by the prospect of KSA BUYING (not getting) F-35 without recognizing Israel or signing the Abraham Accords.

I find it strange/annoying/contrary to the interests of both KSA and the US that a third party state (Israel) has this much influence and enough influence to potentially torpedo such a deal.
 
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@TruthSeeker another American that I remember.

Genuinely interested in what American citizens have to say about some of the points that I raised in post 4 and 6 of this thread.
Sir, I agree with you that the USA should sell F-35s to Saudi Arabia, regardless of what Israel advises. It is clear that while the Saudi governmental system, and dominant religion, are different from that of the USA, this same is true of the USA and Israel and Turkey and several other USA allies. The KSA is a hugely important and valuable friend to the USA. We cannot expect all of our friends to accept only the Israeli position on Palestinian rights. The USA should do everything it can to enable the Palestinian people to have self-determination, including supporting friends, such as the KSA, who peacefully and honestly pressure Israel to compromise with the descendants of the people the Israelis have displaced and dispossessed.
 
(just 1 single country with a small population and an economy barely larger than UAE), at the expense of the Arab world (combined almost 4th largest economy in the world - in the future even larger given demographics and future population size), not to mention natural riches/resources/minerals (KSA alone has more natural wealth than every single country on earth not named 8 times larger Russia and 4.3 times larger USA).

That tiny population has lots of people involved in R&D for Western companies.

Remember many are ex-Soviet scientists. The US is making sure they are used for our benefit..not Russia's.

If there was some other country nearby designing microchips or contributing to things like vaccines then maybe companies would be flocking there...but until then Israel has the R&D money.

For instance Israel makes the F-35 helmet and is working on a new one.
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Elbit America - Zero-G Pilots Helmet - HMDS+ - 6th Generation Fighter Pilots Helmet​


How can we pull the plug on Israel and still sell F-35s to Saudi if we can't even get you the helmets?
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That little population is pulling a lot of cutting-edge technology magic out of its hat..
 
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Sir, I agree with you that the USA should sell F-35s to Saudi Arabia, regardless of what Israel advises. It is clear that while the Saudi governmental system, and dominant religion, are different from that of the USA, this same is true of the USA and Israel and Turkey and several other USA allies. The KSA is a hugely important and valuable friend to the USA. We cannot expect all of our friends to accept only the Israeli position on Palestinian rights. The USA should do everything it can to enable the Palestinian people to have self-determination, including supporting friends, such as the KSA, who peacefully and honestly pressure Israel to compromise with the descendants of the people the Israelis have displaced and dispossessed.
Interesting to read your opinion and thank you for taking your time to share it after I tagged you in this thread. I agree with your post.

I was simply interested in hearing what Americans thought about some of the points I raised in this thread.

That tiny population has lots of people involved in R&D for Western companies.

Remember many are ex-Soviet scientists. The US is making sure they are used for our benefit..not Russia's.

If there was some other country nearby designing microchips or contributing to things like vaccines then maybe companies would be flocking there...but until then Israel has the R&D money.

For instance Israel makes the F-35 helmet and is working on a new one.
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Elbit America - Zero-G Pilots Helmet - HMDS+ - 6th Generation Fighter Pilots Helmet​


How can we pull the plug on Israel and still sell F-35s to Saudi if we can't even get you the helmets?
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That little population is pulling a lot of cutting-edge technology magic out of its hat..


No denying that Israel is doing very well in terms of innovation, startups, venture capital, R&D etc.

Anyway countries like KSA are slowly catching up (available scientific data, international rankings, papers published, number of STEM students, global university ranks, money spent on STEM fields, R&D and science as a whole confirms it) let alone the region as a whole.

All this without the support that Israel gets/receives (often for free) from the US/West.

I never wrote that KSA should stop having ties with Israel, that would be unrealistic given the geopolitical realties since 1948, incredibly strong/influential Jewish-American community (despite numbering just 7 million people) and long-term ties as well.

My point was not be taken as a hostage by this relationship and to ignore their pressure if it works against US interests. Or in short just a more balanced approach.

The irony is that it is only the US (due to military, economic and political pressure) that is able to genuinely pressure Israel. The US has the ability to almost force Israel to accept an acceptable (for both parties) 2-state solution that would solve a lot of the past, current and future mess.

Ironically this would also immediately result in Israel being accepted by most (if not all) Arab states and official relations would be established with everything this entails of potential positive outcome.

This way there would be no conflict between US allies in the region either. Meaning that the US could focus on other foreign topics. Be it Russia or China.

So the behavior of Netanyahu and the current Israeli government is contrary to US regional and global interests if you ask me.

To such an extend that most young Americans, for the first time in recorded history (regardless of ethnicity and religion) if we go by all of those published polls, are turning overwhelmingly either anti-Israel or neutral.
 
@Hamartia Antidote (other Americans reading this as well)

In terms of the Israeli produced parts in the F-35 (helmet and apparently outer wings) could this not be easily replaced by US made components or versions? The full-US F-35 versions, do they employ any foreign produced F-35 parts? Probably not the case.

If Israel objects to KSA's purchase of the F-35, could KSA not buy a F-35 version strictly without any external parts not produced by/in the US?
 
@Hamartia Antidote (other Americans reading this as well)

In terms of the Israeli produced parts in the F-35 (helmet and apparently outer wings) could this not be easily replaced by US made components or versions? The full-US F-35 versions, do they employ any foreign produced F-35 parts? Probably not the case.

If Israel objects to KSA's purchase of the F-35, could KSA not buy a F-35 version strictly without any external parts not produced by/in the US?

The original helmet was designed by the UK company Helmet Integrated Systems, Ltd.
However they couldn't get their design to work satisfactorily. Elbit already had the see-thru tech working for a tank helmet so Helmet Integrated Systems was dropped and Elbit was brought in to work with Collins (in the joint venture "Vision Systems International") to covert Elbit's tank tech to a fighter jet.

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[2017] Elbit's Horowitz on Helmet-Mounted Sights, 25 Years in US Market​


Speaking of high tech helmets the Oculus Rift guy is one of the chief people at that Anduril defense company that keeps making news.

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Joe Looks At Andrul’s New Military Eagleeye Helmet “CRAZY TECHNOLOGY” | Joe Rogan & Palmer Luckey​

 
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The original helmet was designed by the UK company Helmet Integrated Systems, Ltd.
However they couldn't get their design to work satisfactorily. Elbit already had the see-thru tech working for a tank helmet so Helmet Integrated Systems was dropped and Elbit was brought in to work with Collins (in the joint venture "Vision Systems International") to covert Elbit's tank tech to a fighter jet.

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[2017] Elbit's Horowitz on Helmet-Mounted Sights, 25 Years in US Market​


Speaking of high tech helmets the Oculus Rift guy is one of the chief people at that Anduril defense company that keeps making news.

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Joe Looks At Andrul’s New Military Eagleeye Helmet “CRAZY TECHNOLOGY” | Joe Rogan & Palmer Luckey​


Not yet made any research on the topic but the Israeli contribution here (helmet) is that not made by a local American US-based Elbit subsidiary? Meaning that the full IPR is under full US control? Which essentially would mean that Israel has (in theory) no say whatsoever who the US decides to export the F-35 to.

Because otherwise I see no reason why reliable media across the world, US, Arab, Israeli, are talking about a F-35 sale to KSA without an official KSA recognition of Israel which is not happening right now with almost certainty.

Something does not add up here.

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(reenacted scene by the great-grandsons/grandsons involved).

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Bloomberg agency, citing a senior U.S. official resident #Trump is expected to approve the sale of F-35 fighter jets to Saudi Arabia, as the Kingdom's request to purchase 48 aircraft of this model has overcome all major hurdles in the Pentagon.

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:ROFLMAO:
 
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Not yet made any research on the topic but the Israeli contribution here (helmet) is that not made by a local American US-based Elbit subsidiary? Meaning that the full IPR is under full US control?

Uh I don’t think that’s how it works. I don’t think Huawei USA or BYD USA has any IP under US control.
 
Uh I don’t think that’s how it works. I don’t think Huawei USA or BYD USA has any IP under US control.
No idea, but I find it hard to believe that the US of all countries has made itself willingly reliant on a foreign contributor (non-NATO member state too) to design a vital component of the F-35 without having much say or a homemade second option/replacement that they could fall back on. Even more so when the F-35 is the most advanced export fighter jet that the US has.

Pretty sure Elbit itself has very strong connections to the US (from the very beginning) and financial and scientific support.

After all the US has been giving Israel billions of dollars in military support for decades on an annual basis.

Not aware of any single Israel-made tech that is not a derivative from existing US/Western tech as well.
 
No idea, but I find it hard to believe that the US of all countries has made itself willingly reliant on a foreign contributor (non-NATO member state too) to design a vital component of the F-35 without having much say or a homemade second option/replacement that they could fall back on. Even more so when the F-35 is the most advanced export fighter jet that the US has.

Pretty sure Elbit itself has very strong connections to the US (from the very beginning) and financial and scientific support.

After all the US has been giving Israel billions of dollars in military support for decades on an annual basis.

Not aware of any single Israel-made tech that is not a derivative from existing US/Western tech as well.

I believe Elbit also supplies the helmet targeting optics for the Apache Longbow helicopter. They aren’t newbies.
 

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