Dangerous majoritarianism

[Indos]

If any one see Islamic conservatism bring backward to nation, it is due to the nation culture, not Islamic real teaching.

Islam in essence will bring modernity, tolerance to any society who follow it in its true essence

Islamic teaching in Indonesia comes from NU and Muhammadiyah interpretation.

NU stresses more on spiritualism (Tasawuf) and Muhammadiyah with free thingking (obligate the follower to read meaning of Quran and urge the ability to interpret it independently - moving away in so called Mullah must be followed teaching).

Most Ulama comes from Madrasah but most of them go to university ( Islamic Universities) where both NU and Muhammadiyah has stake on it.

Modern Education system in Indonesia traditionally since Soeharto era is hold by Muhammadiyah while Madrasah is hold by NU. Madrasah is financed by Religious Ministry who is NU dominated.

 

[JaneBhiDoYaaron]

Yes exactly only education can change the mind of a radical man.
The problem is if you try to educate the current radicalised generation they won't listen to you instead they will accuse you for blasphemy or a foreign anti islam agent. Only the upcoming educated generations will bring the change.
It's simple it's easy to tame a pony than a full grown horse.
Though in our pakistani urban areas the young lot specially born after 2005 are very different and kind of way less religious.

Agreed and that is why I mentioned rule of law first. Government must enforce rule, if you make example out to two, rest will fall in line.

Believe me problem is much easier to handle than it seems with establishments in full control ONLY if you have someone with vision. Mobs are usually like cockroaches stomp one and rest runs away.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Agreed and that is why I mentioned rule of law first. Government must enforce rule, if you make example out to two, rest will fall in line.

Believe me problem is much easier to handle than it seems with establishments in full control ONLY if you have someone with vision. Mobs are usually like cockroaches stomp one and rest runs away.

Yea army and rangers are capable of controlling them I believe. But they are hypocrites and play on both sides.
The rest of people in power like politicians , policemen etc feel scared and avoid to indulge in sensitive religious issues like blasphemy. As they know very well the street power of these radical people. They come in the hordes of millions to attack you. And you die without justice. You can't punish the huge mob later on.
Remember what happened to punjab governor salman taseer.

 

[JaneBhiDoYaaron]

Yea army and rangers are capable of controlling them I believe. But they are hypocrites and play on both sides.
The rest of people in power like politicians , policemen etc feel scared and avoid to indulge in sensitive religious issues like blasphemy. As they know very well the street power of these radical people. They come in the hordes of millions to attack you. And you die without justice. You can't punish the huge mob later on.
Remember what happened to punjab governor salman taseer.

Yes but those millions are controlled by few so cut the head of snake and rest will be scattered. BUT as you said no one is ready to put nation first.

 

[krash]

This is qadiani plan,

And the lizard people..... I don't mean to be rude but your assertion is ridiculous.

so then they can openly point fingers at religious personalities. Rape law is also misused, power and authority is also misused.

Pakistan should form a special police investigation agency, with special courts which deal with murder, rape, kidnapping, blasphemy, corruption, bribery. When fast track justice is given, the people will trust the force and noone will take law in to their own hands and if they do then strict action should be taken against them.

We don't see people lynching murderers, rapists, or the corrupt in the streets, though. It's this law which gives quasi-legal cover to these acts, the rest is done by the general population. The law itself is a travesty against Islamic principles, common sense, and human rights.

Indeed it is, but all it provides are the bedrock principles. How does one translate that into an applicable code of laws is the issue I am referring to.

The same way law makers and their society create other laws based on principles originating elsewhere. There really isn't anything complicated in there. Ironically, the west has already applied most of these principles quite effectively.

 

[VCheng]

The same way law makers and their society create other laws based on principles originating elsewhere. There really isn't anything complicated in there. Ironically, the west has already applied most of these principles quite effectively.

But you overlook one very important factor: getting Pakistani lawmakers to translate the Quran into a unified code of law. Good luck with that!

 

[Oscar]

But you overlook one very important factor: getting Pakistani lawmakers to translate the Quran into a unified code of law. Good luck with that!

If half of them can actually read or remember it - then understand it.

It is not for Pakistani lawmakers to decipher - but at this point it’s moot because there is no longer a line between culture and religion for most of those lawmakers

 

[VCheng]

If half of them can actually read or remember it - then understand it.

It is not for Pakistani lawmakers to decipher - but at this point it’s moot because there is no longer a line between culture and religion for most of those lawmakers

Merely a potent tool to sedate or inflame the masses as needed in the hands of the manipulators.

Here is a simple test, like Sharia 101 kind of thing: get them to unit on a common marriage, inheritance and zakat law. Then we can move on to other things.

I know which way I am betting on the outcome of that test.

 

[Oscar]

Merely a potent tool to sedate or inflame the masses as needed in the hands of the manipulators.

Here is a simple test, like Sharia 101 kind of thing: get them to unit on a common marriage, inheritance and zakat law. Then we can move on to other things.

I know which way I am betting on the outcome of that test.

It wont matter - we have evidence here at home even with decent high school education religious extremism percolates to idiotic levels. If what we see in red maga is equal to eczema then Pakistan is completely covered in gangrene.

 

[VCheng]

It wont matter - we have evidence here at home even with decent high school education religious extremism percolates to idiotic levels. If what we see in red maga is equal to eczema then Pakistan is completely covered in gangrene.

The "Oh Lawd Jeeeeeeezus is a'comin'" crowd is exactly the same, I agree.

 

[nahtanbob]

Dangerous majoritarianism​

Muhammad Amir Rana

PAKISTAN is unable to follow the path of Saudi Arabia or Indonesia, which are progressing slowly and steadily with religious reforms. Both countries present contrasting visions of religious reform but are ultimately opening up their respective societies, enhancing governance, and improving their international image.

In both countries, the leadership promotes religious reforms. In Saudi Arabia, the reform process is slower than the one in Indonesia, primarily because Indonesian civil society supports the state’s efforts in this direction.

In contrast, the Pakistani leadership needs to be more aware of the importance of religious reforms in navigating a changing world. Instead, it aligns itself with extremist forces, gaining ideological and political power while empowering these groups to use violence against communal and sectarian minorities.

The nexus between the power or ruling elite and the establishment in Pakistan is not new. It has been studied extensively by local and international scholars. However, what remains constant is the elite’s appeasement of extremists and their inclination to use them for political purposes. While social factors have contributed to the extremist mindset in Pakistan, the power elite’s actions are often criminal, eroding the societal fabric.

Incidents like the one in Madyan, Swat, lynchings in Punjab, and vandalism against the Ahmadi community during Eid indicate that extremism in society is reaching dangerous levels. Taking the law into one’s own hands has become standard practice for charged mobs and activists of radical religious groups. The administration hardly attempts to restrain them, and simply registers cases against the suspects. People with clout then come forward and help the suspects and their families financially and with legal aid. Once they are released, they become heroes in their communities. This has become the norm after every blasphemy-related tragedy that involves lynchings and mob violence.


A majoritarian mindset is at play, with the state a mere spectator. In Punjab and urban Sindh, the Tehreek-i-Labbaik Pakistan is fanning the flames of extremism. Although other religiously motivated actors have acted in a similar fashion in the past, the TLP’s rhetoric is now so powerful that they cannot compete.

The TLP has transformed itself into an extensive phenomenon, reflecting a mindset shared by perhaps most of society. This majority is religiously and politically disillusioned, falling into the trap of political populism and growing increasingly resentful of the power elites. Paradoxically, state institutions endorse this majority mindset and side with the extremists when issues of religious sentiment arise.

The common man cannot fully comprehend the dichotomy of the state, and his anger against the latter is increasing. However, the TLP and other religious parties have their constituencies in the semi-urban areas, and among low-income groups, while a significant portion of the middle class, too, exhibits the same mindset. While the middle class tends to avoid direct involvement in violence, they fully support the actions of the fanatics. These radical religious groups draw their core strength from middle-class youth, who serve as keyboard warriors, developing political strategies and evolving organisational tactics.

The power elites do not feel much threat from the core leadership of extremist groups because they maintain open communication channels and often interact with them. They are more concerned about the keyboard warriors and seek to regulate virtual spaces. They have similar fears about social media activists from populist political parties and nationalist political parties in the peripheries.

The power elites believe that more control over social media, building firewalls, and tightening legal regulations will eliminate dissent in all forms. Social media is merely a medium, but despite reviewing its policies and practices vis-à-vis extremism and extremist parties, the establishment is more interested in controlling it. Apart from controlling social media spaces, the state has taken cosmetic policy measures to deal with extremism. Until the power elites do not end their appeasement approach and address the core issue and encourage religious reforms as Saudi Arabia and Indonesia are doing, extremism will continue to shape an ugly majoritarian mindset.

The whole system seems paralysed once it encounters the challenge of religiously motivated mob violence. The federal and provincial governments avoid even commenting on such incidents and leave it to the establishment and local administrations to deal with such cases on their own. The governments are scared that their involvement in such cases would divert the public’s anger towards them. This attitude encourages the extremists.

The police and lower judiciary deal with such cases carelessly and, in many cases, leave loopholes in their decisions that ultimately benefit the culprits. The higher judiciary has taken such issues more seriously, but its reviews and decisions have failed to trigger any major change in society.

The state institutions need to break the support system of the extremists. Apart from the power elites’ appeasement policy and the system’s flaws in dealing with the menace, two major sources of support are encouraging the people to take the law into their own hands.

First is the influential class. Mostly, they are local businessmen and lawyers who provide financial and legal aid to the criminals on behalf of the rest of the community. Second are the mosque imams, who are directly or indirectly affiliated with the extremist groups; once such incidents happen, they invite these groups for their help. The extremist groups take this as an opportunity to increase their influence and take command of matters ranging from negotiating with the administration to dealing with legal matters. The extremist groups have lawyers’ wings, influencing the courts during the proceedings.

In such a society, where the state and society nurture and protect an infrastructure of extremism, who can hope for change? Religious reforms in Pakistan will remain a dream for a long time.

The writer is a security analyst.

Published in Dawn, June 23rd, 2024

It is nice to live in a religiously tolerant society. But is Pakistan really in trouble because of religious intolerance ? Pakistan has a general problem with the rule of law. That goes beyond religious intolerance/lynch mobs/blasphemy cases.

 

[Developereo]

come on man we all feel for our homeland and wish her to progress well else e we won’t be spend time here defending her. People have different priorities and we all have finite time.

LOL, now that you mention it, how much do these discussions really contribute to a solution?

In all the decades that I have lived in the US and Australia, I never really paid much attention to Pakistan, let alone India. My social circle never included South Asians, especially after college, and my only contact with Pakistan outside of family was to occasionally go to Pakistani restaurants, listen to old Pakistani songs, and to give money to Pakistani charities.

All that changed when a family member told me about Imran Khan -- I was not into cricket so didn't know much about him -- and we felt that here was a man who could finally save Pakistan. That is when I joined the old forum.

Well, we all know how that turned out and I have been losing interest, and hope for Pakistan, with his demise. I will continue to donate to Pakistani charities but I have no delusions about the value of these perennial discussions on internet forums.

 

[JaneBhiDoYaaron]

Merely a potent tool to sedate or inflame the masses as needed in the hands of the manipulators.

Here is a simple test, like Sharia 101 kind of thing: get them to unit on a common marriage, inheritance and zakat law. Then we can move on to other things.

I know which way I am betting on the outcome of that test.

As Pakistan is mostly Sunni followers just using Saudi Interpretation as it is should by accepted by all easily. If you leave it on mullah like @VCheng said forget it. Hell they cannot agree on moon viewing dates.

Anyway this is not my subject, so I won’t comment but best wishes to Pakistan.

LOL, now that you mention it, how much do these discussions really contribute to a solution?

In all the decades that I have lived in the US and Australia, I never really paid much attention to Pakistan, let alone India. My social circle never included South Asians, especially after college, and my only contact with Pakistan outside of family was to occasionally go to Pakistani restaurants, listen to old Pakistani songs, and to give money to Pakistani charities.

All that changed when a family member told me about Imran Khan -- I was not into cricket so didn't know much about him -- and we felt that here was a man who could finally save Pakistan. That is when I joined the old forum.

Well, we all know how that turned out and I have been losing interest, and hope for Pakistan, with his demise. I will continue to donate to Pakistani charities but I have no delusions about the value of these perennial discussions on internet forums.

completely understandable, It would be same for me, if corrupt Indian opposition comes to power in India. Why worry/support if people elect corrupt and vision less leaders.

Hope you will have Imran come out from jail and become PM again or Pakistan gets someone else who gets you interested back in supporting betterments Pakistan.

 

[VCheng]

As Pakistan is mostly Sunni followers just using Saudi Interpretation as it is should by accepted by all easily. If you leave it on mullah like @VCheng said forget it. Hell they cannot agree on moon viewing dates.

That acceptance is infinitely more difficult that anyone sane might think. The wise stay away. The lunatics rule.