HAL LCA Tejas: Updates, News & Discussions

[MirageBlue]

In other very interesting news, the Brazilian FAB is also likely to consider the Tejas (Mk1A or Mk2 isn't sure) for it's F-5 replacement program.

Brazilian FAB Chief of Staff is in Bangalore and will get to sit in a Tejas cockpit for the first time.

Just recently there was talk that the FAB could look for second hand F-16s to replace it's F-5s.

The most interesting aspect is that the FAB has rules that state it must have a minimum of at least 2 different fighter types in service or at the most 3 fighter types. Once the FAB retires it's F-5 fighters, it will be left with only the Gripen E, since the AMX too has retired from FAB service.

I hope they go in for the Tejas Mk2, although it will be a little costlier than the Tejas Mk1A, it's range and payload are going to be in the same range as the Gripen E, at a probable lower cost of acquisition.

What would work best is to tie the deal for C-390 transports for the IAF, a deal that is going to be even bigger than the number of C-390s Brazil operates, to a purchase of Tejas Mk1A or Mk2 fighters. A win-win for both countries.

India Brazil defence talks focus on Tejas, C390 and more

The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, the Brazilian Embraer C-390 Millennium and Indian-made helicopters were on the agenda when the air force chiefs of Brazil and India met yesterday evening, as were joint work on drones and space satellites for surveillance. Air Chief Marshal V.R. Chaudhari and Lieutenant-brigadier Marcelo Kantiz Damasceno met yesterday evening. The Brazilians are considering the Tejas, the indigenously developed fighter aircraft and also, helicopters (Damasceno will be in Bangalore where Hindustan Aeronautics that makes the Dhruv and the Prachand) is headquartered. They also made the case for the C-390 medium transport aircraft, saying it compares favourably with the American C-130. Importantly, keeping in mind the Make in India regulations, Embraer, which manufactures the C-390, has two memorandum of understandings (MOU) with Mahindra: it could be manufactured here and exported, if there is an opportunity.

Speaking to Times Now, the Brazilian air chief made it clear that the Tejas was one of the options for his air force. "According to our rules, we should have not less than two and not more than three kinds of fighter aircraft. Currently, we have the F-5 and the Gripen, but after 2030, we will need maybe two more kinds as the F-5 goes. So, while the Gripen remains, the Tejas is one of the options for our second or third fighter plane," he said.

He will be in Bangalore, he said, looking at the Tejas for the first time and will be sitting in the aircraft. The Tejas is a single-engine multi-role fighter and the IAF has ordered over 200 of them. It is largely indigenous with the engine being GE's 404.

Helicopters are a major requirement for Brazil, Damasceno (a four-star general) said. "We have seven squadrons of 12 helicopters each and we are looking for more, perhaps 24 new choppers," he said. This will include choppers for a new squadron for the Amazon area and for flood relief. "We will consider Indian helicopters," he added.

 

[MirageBlue]

Amazing 2 second footage showing a Tejas Mk1 in DACT against a Growler from the RAAF

 

[Deino]

In other very interesting news, the Brazilian FAB is also likely to consider the Tejas (Mk1A or Mk2 isn't sure) for it's F-5 replacement program.

Brazilian FAB Chief of Staff is in Bangalore and will get to sit in a Tejas cockpit for the first time.

Just recently there was talk that the FAB could look for second hand F-16s to replace it's F-5s.

The most interesting aspect is that the FAB has rules that state it must have a minimum of at least 2 different fighter types in service or at the most 3 fighter types. Once the FAB retires it's F-5 fighters, it will be left with only the Gripen E, since the AMX too has retired from FAB service.

I hope they go in for the Tejas Mk2, although it will be a little costlier than the Tejas Mk1A, it's range and payload are going to be in the same range as the Gripen E, at a probable lower cost of acquisition.

What would work best is to tie the deal for C-390 transports for the IAF, a deal that is going to be even bigger than the number of C-390s Brazil operates, to a purchase of Tejas Mk1A or Mk2 fighters. A win-win for both countries.

India Brazil defence talks focus on Tejas, C390 and more

Just think about it ... how likely is it that Brazil - an operator of the Gripen - purchases a fighter in a similar class, that isn't mature and not even in service in large numbers in the own Air Force and now has issues with the engine supply??
Not to speak of after-sales support and so on ... just forget it!

These are just friendly talks and to tease the real options to lower the price.

 

[onlinpunit]

Just think about it ... how likely is it that Brazil - an operator of the Gripen - purchases a fighter in a similar class, that isn't mature and not even in service in large numbers in the own Air Force and now has issues with the engine supply??
Not to speak of after-sales support and so on ... just forget it!

These are just friendly talks and to tease the real options to lower the price.

Difficult : yes. In fact really difficult.
Impossible : no.

 

[Deino]

Difficult : yes. In fact really difficult.
Impossible : no.

Well, impossible based on any realistic estimation!

 

[kmc_chacko]

Not just engines, Tejas Mk-1A delivery could be hit over key Danish part, now on export blacklist

The delivery of the Tejas Mk-1A fighter jets to the Indian Air Force (IAF) could be further delayed because a key component of the aircraft—engine charge amplifier—that was meant to be imported from Denmark has been put on an export blacklist by it, ThePrint has learnt.


This would be over and above the ongoing delay of several months because of the non-delivery of engines by American engine maker General Electric (GE) and the time taken for certain iterations (changes) of the Israeli software installed in the aircraft.

About the charge amplifiers, sources in the defence establishment told ThePrint that while the Ministry of Defence has taken up the issue with Denmark via the Indian embassy, state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which manufactures the fighters, has already contracted a local firm to indigenise the product.
Sources also said that while these amplifiers are fitted on board the previous generation of Tejas in service with the IAF, the contract for the 83 LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) Mk-1As remains unfilled.

Asked why, a source said, “Denmark authorities have put export restrictions on this item, which is likely to be due to the ongoing Russia-Ukraine conflict. We have taken up the issue through our Indian mission there.”

According to sources, HAL is working to ensure that the indigenisation is completed.


“It was a small product which was being imported. But now, because of this export blacklisting, HAL has contracted a Bengaluru firm to indigenise it. The firm, we are told, has almost completed it, and then HAL will carry out tests. It can then be mass produced,” a second source said.

HAL expects the process to be completed sooner than expected and is hopeful of delivering the initial lot of aircraft with some charge amplifiers that came in under the previous contract.

Sources explained that although it is a very small item, the engine charge amplifier is an important element which measures the temperature of the engine and acts accordingly.

ThePrint had first reported in March this year that the delivery of the aircraft will be delayed because iterations were needed in the software and a key part, which was to be imported from a foreign country, had not come. The charge amplifier was the part that was referred to in ThePrint’s report, but there was no confirmation about the exact details at that time.

“The engine delay is the larger problem behind which key issues are hiding. Even if GE would have delivered the engine in March, the aircraft would still not have been delivered,” a third source said, describing the seriousness of the issue.


The sources said that it is hoped that the Denmark government will give India a breather or that the indigenisation process and testing phase do not consume time.

As reported by ThePrint last week, after Defence Minister Rajnath Singh discussed the issue with the US during his visit to Washington in August, GE has assured India of a fresh delivery schedule, starting November this year, for the F404-IN20 engines.

GE has promised two engines per month and assured that the overall delivery schedule would not be pushed. The firm had explained to the defence ministry that there were global supply chain issues and that it usually takes time for new vendors to be duly certified since parts have to undergo various tests.

According to the contract signed in 2021, HAL was to start the delivery of the aircraft from March this year and has to deliver 16 aircraft per year. No aircraft has been delivered yet and now, the hope is that the first one would be delivered either by the end of October or November.

Not just engines, Tejas Mk-1A delivery could be hit over key Danish part, now on export blacklist

India is in talks with Denmark over the engine charge amplifiers, while HAL has contracted a local firm to indigenise them, it is learnt. HAL was supposed to start the delivery in March.

theprint.in

 

[MirageBlue]

Just think about it ... how likely is it that Brazil - an operator of the Gripen - purchases a fighter in a similar class, that isn't mature and not even in service in large numbers in the own Air Force and now has issues with the engine supply??
Not to speak of after-sales support and so on ... just forget it!

These are just friendly talks and to tease the real options to lower the price.

You are entitled to your opinion. I will state mine and leave it at that since I can't deal with people's intrinsic bias.

You obviously didn't read what the FAB Chief said about their rules which enforce having at least minimum of 2 fighter types and a maximum of 3 fighter types. What other fighter options do they have? Second hand F-16s from the US, somewhat like what Argentina did. Or your preferred option, the J-10C?

India could then very well use the C-390 simply to "tease the real options to lower the price" as well. All the arguments you offer against the Tejas can be turned around and used against the C-390 as well, when it is going against C-130J whose entire fuselage is built in India at a Tata-LM JV facility.

 

[MirageBlue]

Not just engines, Tejas Mk-1A delivery could be hit over key Danish part, now on export blacklist

The delivery of the Tejas Mk-1A fighter jets to the Indian Air Force (IAF) could be further delayed because a key component of the aircraft—engine charge amplifier—that was meant to be imported from Denmark has been put on an export blacklist by it, ThePrint has learnt.


This would be over and above the ongoing delay of several months because of the non-delivery of engines by American engine maker General Electric (GE) and the time taken for certain iterations (changes) of the Israeli software installed in the aircraft.

About the charge amplifiers, sources in the defence establishment told ThePrint that while the Ministry of Defence has taken up the issue with Denmark via the Indian embassy, state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which manufactures the fighters, has already contracted a local firm to indigenise the product.
Sources also said that while these amplifiers are fitted on board the previous generation of Tejas in service with the IAF, the contract for the 83 LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) Mk-1As remains unfilled.

Asked why, a source said, “Denmark authorities have put export restrictions on this item, which is likely to be due to the ongoing Russia-Ukraine conflict. We have taken up the issue through our Indian mission there.”

According to sources, HAL is working to ensure that the indigenisation is completed.


“It was a small product which was being imported. But now, because of this export blacklisting, HAL has contracted a Bengaluru firm to indigenise it. The firm, we are told, has almost completed it, and then HAL will carry out tests. It can then be mass produced,” a second source said.

HAL expects the process to be completed sooner than expected and is hopeful of delivering the initial lot of aircraft with some charge amplifiers that came in under the previous contract.

Sources explained that although it is a very small item, the engine charge amplifier is an important element which measures the temperature of the engine and acts accordingly.

ThePrint had first reported in March this year that the delivery of the aircraft will be delayed because iterations were needed in the software and a key part, which was to be imported from a foreign country, had not come. The charge amplifier was the part that was referred to in ThePrint’s report, but there was no confirmation about the exact details at that time.

“The engine delay is the larger problem behind which key issues are hiding. Even if GE would have delivered the engine in March, the aircraft would still not have been delivered,” a third source said, describing the seriousness of the issue.


The sources said that it is hoped that the Denmark government will give India a breather or that the indigenisation process and testing phase do not consume time.

As reported by ThePrint last week, after Defence Minister Rajnath Singh discussed the issue with the US during his visit to Washington in August, GE has assured India of a fresh delivery schedule, starting November this year, for the F404-IN20 engines.

GE has promised two engines per month and assured that the overall delivery schedule would not be pushed. The firm had explained to the defence ministry that there were global supply chain issues and that it usually takes time for new vendors to be duly certified since parts have to undergo various tests.

According to the contract signed in 2021, HAL was to start the delivery of the aircraft from March this year and has to deliver 16 aircraft per year. No aircraft has been delivered yet and now, the hope is that the first one would be delivered either by the end of October or November.

Not just engines, Tejas Mk-1A delivery could be hit over key Danish part, now on export blacklist

India is in talks with Denmark over the engine charge amplifiers, while HAL has contracted a local firm to indigenise them, it is learnt. HAL was supposed to start the delivery in March.

theprint.in

Another part that is being indigenized right now. It will be ready for testing soon at HAL. But this is a cautionary tale. The more the dependency on foreign parts, the greater the risk of missing deadlines due to sanctions, as ridiculous as they could be, such as this engine charge amplifier.

 

[Deino]

You are entitled to your opinion. I will state mine and leave it at that since I can't deal with people's intrinsic bias.

You obviously didn't read what the FAB Chief said about their rules which enforce having at least minimum of 2 fighter types and a maximum of 3 fighter types. What other fighter options do they have? Second hand F-16s from the US, somewhat like what Argentina did. Or your preferred option, the J-10C?

India could then very well use the C-390 simply to "tease the real options to lower the price" as well. All the arguments you offer against the Tejas can be turned around and used against the C-390 as well, when it is going against C-130J whose entire fuselage is built in India at a Tata-LM JV facility.

It's not bias, but simply a realistic assessment of the options and yes for sure you can be entitled for your own opinion.

Concerning the C-390 argument I agree with you, this is an interesting option or even teaser but that does not make the Tejas more interesting for Brazil. For a second fighter, Brazil should IMO go the T-50 or maybe even M-345 way. The J-10C since you mentioned it is surely not an option and surely not my preferred one.

 

[DDG-80]

Another part that is being indigenized right now. It will be ready for testing soon at HAL. But this is a cautionary tale. The more the dependency on foreign parts, the greater the risk of missing deadlines due to sanctions, as ridiculous as they could be, such as this engine charge amplifier.

As the article mentions, the component is currently being indigenized and is in the advanced stages of the process. While it's a setback for now, it will ultimately eliminate another foreign dependency in the long run. Even Rafale has lots of imported parts from US companies.

 

[MirageBlue]

It's not bias, but simply a realistic assessment of the options and yes for sure you can be entitled for your own opinion.

Concerning the C-390 argument I agree with you, this is an interesting option or even teaser but that does not make the Tejas more interesting for Brazil. For a second fighter, Brazil should IMO go the T-50 or maybe even M-345 way. The J-10C since you mentioned it is surely not an option and surely not my preferred one.

The Brazilians will evaluate if required, and if required, take an informed decision. Your attitude that this is simply not possible is purely based on your bias against India and when pointed out, you'll offer various reasons for the same.

The Brazilians have expressed interest in the Akash NG as well the Dhruv ALH Mk3, may not go down well with you, but that's just fact..

Brazilian AF in negotiations with US for used F-16s

This Janes article clearly reports that the FAB is looking for another type of fighter apart from the Gripen E. It may well be due to fears of sanctions crippling your entire fighter fleet if it is based only on 1 type.

In 2014 the FAB ordered 36 Gripens for USD5.4 billion, and was widely expected to purchase a second batch of 36 to equip the 1º Grupo de Defesa Aérea (1º GDA) at Anápolis, which operated Mirage 2000s until 2013, then replace the two groups equipped with F-5EM Tiger IIs, followed by the two groups equipped with AMXs. Although the service was expected to purchase a second batch of Saab Gripen E/Fs, insufficient funding has led the FAB to search for cheaper options to replace its old fighter aircraft, the officer told Janes.

So 5 groups (equivalent to squadrons) to be replaced - 1 with Mirage-2000s that is now numberplated, 2 with F-5EM Tiger IIs and 2 with AMXs that have been retired already.

Second hand F-16s from the US may last another 10-15 years before needing to be replaced and in the longer run are no better than the second hand Mirage-2000s they bought from France. Are they worth investing in when you need to train pilots/maintainers, set up facilities to overhaul and repair? I hardly think so.

 

[GatlingGun]

Just think about it ... how likely is it that Brazil - an operator of the Gripen - purchases a fighter in a similar class, that isn't mature and not even in service in large numbers in the own Air Force and now has issues with the engine supply??
Not to speak of after-sales support and so on ... just forget it!

These are just friendly talks and to tease the real options to lower the price.

Your bias is clouding the only skill you have ie googling.
Brazil operates Gripen NG, not Gripen C that's in same category as LCA ,FA50 and Jf17.

 

[Deino]

Your bias is clouding the only skill you have ie googling.
Brazil operates Gripen NG, not Gripen C that's in same category as LCA ,FA50 and Jf17.

You are so much funny ... I was not googeling, I only left the specific subtype, but this does not make the Tejas deal likely since both are still too much the same and all other arguments - I know you won't like them - are even more still valid!

 

[GatlingGun]

You are so much funny ... I was not googeling, I only left the specific subtype, but this does not make the Tejas deal likely since both are still too much the same and all other arguments - I know you won't like them - are even more still valid!

Your argument is flawed from the very first sentence, let alone being valid. Try to peddle your expertise somewhere else.

Is Mirage2K and Fa50/LCA/JF17 in same category ?

 

[Deino]

Your argument is flawed from the very first sentence, let alone being valid. Try to peddle your expertise somewhere else.

Is Mirage2K and Fa50/LCA/JF17 in same category ?

Are you just too lazy or too stupid to reply to my arguments and so you are diverting to this totally useless issue on Gripen-C/D or -NG!

To tell me an apple is not an orange is also something I forgot to mention, but it is also irrelevant!

None of this makes the Mirage 2000 relevant (since in fact again bigger than a Gripen NG), it does not increase the maturity of the Tejas nor its still limited numbers in IAF service, it does not solve the engine supply issue and finally does not create a not yet existing after-sales support system for any export customer... just forget it!