HAL LCA Tejas: Updates, News & Discussions

[JaneBhiDoYaaron]

LO or stealth doesn’t mean you cannot pick something up - it just means you’re going to pick up very very late.

See the difference is what is very very late? We know probably for F35 is never as of today. I don’t know about others until they are out in the battlefield.

 

[Oscar]

See the difference is what is very very late? We know probably for F35 is never as of today. I don’t know about others until they are out in the battlefield.

Very late is when they either have launched and you’re about to be hit in 5 seconds.
And no - the F-35 can be picked up depending upon certain tactics but it is VERY difficult. Meaning it is very very late when you do.

LO does not mean invisible - its all relative to how crowded the spectrum is.

Think of it this way - it’s difficult to pick up a pin drop when you have a bollywood number playing but if it is silent - its is possible with the right ears to pick the pin drop up.

 

[vkdindian]

"the neighbourhood"

All neighbourhood? Moreover, would all aircraft of all the neighbourhood be stealth?
What makes you think that India too wouldn’t induct stealth?
Come on man? If trolling is your aim then do it blatantly, not in a cheeky manner.

 

[indushek]

If they asked for F404 local production, and Mk1A depended on it, firstly cost gone up, then we would had to wait for 2026-27. Why Indians are so obsessed with making everything in India?

F414 ToT is not because you want to supply engines for Tejas Mk2. But to get know-how and know-why for mass production of 3rd-4th gen engine.

That sounded very confusing

How does local production or no, increase cost and us waiting till 2026 or 2027? If you mean cost to setup engine facility, it is a given thing and considering the long-term benefit is not seen as an issue. By waiting till 2026 or 2027, did you mean increase in local materials going up in make of the engine or just making of engine?

F414 make in India - whatever our aim is, for the supplier GE its more number of orders. F414 is going to be used in Mk2, AMCA Mk1 and TEDBF. The TOT part comes later, as without sizeable order no supplier will consider TOT.

Its not obsession to produce locally, but to become self sufficient in MIC. Without attaining this, India can never shake off dependency issues. No one will come to our aid, in crunch times.

 

[kaku]

That sounded very confusing

Why?

How does local production or no, increase cost and us waiting till 2026 or 2027?

Manufacturing any 3rd gen engine is not easy, even if you are doing screwdrivergiri. You need machineries, and most importantly trained Human resource.

If you mean cost to setup engine facility, it is a given thing and considering the long-term benefit is not seen as an issue.

Long-term benefit? You only need 200 or so engines, not 1000 of engines, thats not a long term benefit.
And isnt it because of same reason we paid extra 70 crore for MKI?

Home-made Sukhois to cost more than ones bought from Russia

The 42 new Sukhoi-30 MKI combat jets that India is looking to produce at home are going to cost much less if purchased directly from Russia.

www.indiatoday.in

By waiting till 2026 or 2027, did you mean increase in local materials going up in make of the engine or just making of engine?

You have to build a factory, even a simple Shakti engine MRO factory cost 200 crore.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/hal-turbomeca-sign-jv-in-paris-for-rs-200-crore-mro-facility-for-helicopter-engines-115061800028_1.html

And then after that you had to train HR.

F414 make in India - whatever our aim is, for the supplier GE its more number of orders. F414 is going to be used in Mk2, AMCA Mk1 and TEDBF. The TOT part comes later, as without sizeable order no supplier will consider TOT.

F414 motive is only focused on ToT for one reason, to learn how to mass produce a 3rd-4th gen engine. Kaveri's major problems were resolved long ago, but doing mass production is a totally different ballgame.

Its not obsession to produce locally, but to become self sufficient in MIC. Without attaining this, India can never shake off dependency issues. No one will come to our aid, in crunch times.

Producing locally what? You will be producing hot section part? By doing screwdrivergiri you not going to attain self sufficiency, you have to develop your own engine where you own the IP fully.

 

[Archie]

36/ per year they can achieve.

GE has promised to supply 20 engine a year starting 2025

So production rate is likely to be limited to that
Unless IAF decides to use Kaveri Engines for the second batch of 97 Tejas MK1Bs

 

[MirageBlue]

Or assuaging concerns?

Not really. The IAF as well as other armed services have basically highlighted the possibility of a two front war despite the fact that it raises a lot of concerns. In fact in order to raise concerns.

Assuaging concerns is unlikely to be reason when squadron strength is falling and the MRFA contest, which the IAF sees as crucial in addressing strength and quality concerns, is going nowhere.

Another hint that he wasn't assuaging fears..after the PAK-FA fiasco, and the lack of a 5th gen fighter in the IAF's pipeline for the next 10 years, the IAF hasn't even once mentioned F-35 as an option for e.g. If the IAF was truly alarmed about the J-20, it is almost certain that they'd have begun to lobby for the F-35.

 

[MirageBlue]

GE has promised to supply 20 engine a year starting 2025

So production rate is likely to be limited to that
Unless IAF decides to use Kaveri Engines for the second batch of 97 Tejas MK1Bs

Kaveri is going to be used on Ghatak UCAV and that will itself require a lot of testing.

It isn't going to be on the Tejas Mk1A for sure. The day the Kaveri was de-linked from the Tejas program due to it's technical challenges, it was as good as confirmed that F-404 was going to be the engine for the rest of the program.

My hope for Kaveri was with the HLFT-42 (if that flies), but the HLFT-42 as envisioned is too big and too heavy to be powered by the Kaveri as it is. So even that option seems very unlikely.

BTW, there is no Tejas Mk1B program name. Even if there are changes introduced to the next 97 units that are to be procured, as of now it is not called Tejas Mk1B.

 

[Pataliputra]

All neighbourhood? Moreover, would all aircraft of all the neighbourhood be stealth?
What makes you think that India too wouldn’t induct stealth?
Come on man? If trolling is your aim then do it blatantly, not in a cheeky manner.

Tejas is not a stealth aircraft, but still, its radar cross-section remains lowest in 4th generation fighter jets. The RCS of Tejas MK2 is expected to be even lower. Tejas is a latest design within the 4th generation fighter jets and hence the most capable in its class.

 

[indushek]

Kaveri is going to be used on Ghatak UCAV and that will itself require a lot of testing.

It isn't going to be on the Tejas Mk1A for sure. The day the Kaveri was de-linked from the Tejas program due to it's technical challenges, it was as good as confirmed that F-404 was going to be the engine for the rest of the program.

My hope for Kaveri was with the HLFT-42 (if that flies), but the HLFT-42 as envisioned is too big and too heavy to be powered by the Kaveri as it is. So even that option seems very unlikely.

BTW, there is no Tejas Mk1B program name. Even if there are changes introduced to the next 97 units that are to be procured, as of now it is not called Tejas Mk1B.

There is talk about getting Kaveri ready with a better after burner section, when Mk1 or Mk1A get to their mid life upgrade. Will have to see, how this goes though.

 

[Yasser76]

It is now abundently clear Tejas alone will not solve the IAF's current righter shortage. The most OPTIMISTIC outcome in Tejas production is 1 new fighter squadron a year and that is giving HAL a hell of a lot of credit and assuming they revolutionise production in the next year or so, but lets run with it.

This year and next year you will retire 2 MIG-21 sqds, and maybe add one MK1A sqd (as flight testing not completed and production not started yet), so you are minus one combat sqd in 2025 already.

2026 you make one more Tejas sqd and make up the minus one deficit, so you are pretty much where you are right now (in 2024) in terms of sqd numbers.

By 2026 however you will have 6 sqds of Jaguars that will be around 50 years old, they will need replacing, so 6 sqds will take another six years (assuming you phase out one sqd per year and add 1 Tejas sqd), that takes you up to 2032, and by then of course 3 Mirage 2000 and 3 MIG-29 sqds will need replacing, so another 6 sqds over 6 years taking you up to 2038.

Sp by 2038 IAF will essentially have replaced all MIG-21/29 and Jag sqds with Tejas and remain the same size in sqd size as it is now. See the issue?

You can pretty much discount TejasMK2 and AMACA till around 2040.

By then PAF and PLAAF will pretty much be entirely 4.5th/5th gen going by PAF current induction rates and PLAAF induction rates.

The only answer to this for India is to make a very large order of a foreign fighter and assemble it in India. Issue is

F-21 = V upgrade very good, but feel IAF psychologically will not accept an F-16
F-15 = Very expensive and usefulness against stealth debatable
F-18E/F = Production ended/ending
Gripen = Good option, but very similar to Tejas but can give numbers quickly
F-35 = Not on table
SU-57 = Hard for Russia to commit to any mega deal right now I imagine

Looks like you need to bit the bullet and just order 120 Rafales or KF-21 (uses F414 engine so that can be handy)

 

[DDG-80]

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@MirageBlue

 

[DDG-80]

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[kaku]

It is now abundently clear Tejas alone will not solve the IAF's current righter shortage. The most OPTIMISTIC outcome in Tejas production is 1 new fighter squadron a year and that is giving HAL a hell of a lot of credit and assuming they revolutionise production in the next year or so, but lets run with it.

This year and next year you will retire 2 MIG-21 sqds, and maybe add one MK1A sqd (as flight testing not completed and production not started yet), so you are minus one combat sqd in 2025 already.

2026 you make one more Tejas sqd and make up the minus one deficit, so you are pretty much where you are right now (in 2024) in terms of sqd numbers.

By 2026 however you will have 6 sqds of Jaguars that will be around 50 years old, they will need replacing, so 6 sqds will take another six years (assuming you phase out one sqd per year and add 1 Tejas sqd), that takes you up to 2032, and by then of course 3 Mirage 2000 and 3 MIG-29 sqds will need replacing, so another 6 sqds over 6 years taking you up to 2038.

Sp by 2038 IAF will essentially have replaced all MIG-21/29 and Jag sqds with Tejas and remain the same size in sqd size as it is now. See the issue?

You can pretty much discount TejasMK2 and AMACA till around 2040.

By then PAF and PLAAF will pretty much be entirely 4.5th/5th gen going by PAF current induction rates and PLAAF induction rates.

The only answer to this for India is to make a very large order of a foreign fighter and assemble it in India. Issue is

F-21 = V upgrade very good, but feel IAF psychologically will not accept an F-16
F-15 = Very expensive and usefulness against stealth debatable
F-18E/F = Production ended/ending
Gripen = Good option, but very similar to Tejas but can give numbers quickly
F-35 = Not on table
SU-57 = Hard for Russia to commit to any mega deal right now I imagine

Looks like you need to bit the bullet and just order 120 Rafales or KF-21 (uses F414 engine so that can be handy)

This analysis is so wrong on so many levels, and far from reality.

I will give a detailed explaination later on.

 

[kaku]

It is now abundently clear Tejas alone will not solve the IAF's current righter shortage. The most OPTIMISTIC outcome in Tejas production is 1 new fighter squadron a year and that is giving HAL a hell of a lot of credit and assuming they revolutionise production in the next year or so, but lets run with it.

Second production line is already operational since 2021.

https://www.financialexpress.com/business/defence-boost-for-made-in-india-2nd-production-line-for-lca-inaugurated-will-speed-up-production-of-fighter-jets-2185853/

And third production line is coming online in Nashik.

This year and next year you will retire 2 MIG-21 sqds, and maybe add one MK1A sqd (as flight testing not completed and production not started yet), so you are minus one combat sqd in 2025 already.

2026 you make one more Tejas sqd and make up the minus one deficit, so you are pretty much where you are right now (in 2024) in terms of sqd numbers.

Firstly, when inducting 4.5 gen aircrafts, and replacing a 3rd gen fighters. You dont need 1:1 replacement. And Tejas Mk1A is 4.5 gen aircraft with AESA radar + BNET SDR +ODL D/L+ASPJ.

By 2026 however you will have 6 sqds of Jaguars that will be around 50 years old, they will need replacing, so 6 sqds will take another six years (assuming you phase out one sqd per year and add 1 Tejas sqd), that takes you up to 2032, and by then of course 3 Mirage 2000 and 3 MIG-29 sqds will need replacing, so another 6 sqds over 6 years taking you up to 2038.

Starting from 2028, not 2026, Jaguar starts retriring, thats correct. Thats why more 97 Tejas Mk1A is on cards.

Sp by 2038 IAF will essentially have replaced all MIG-21/29 and Jag sqds with Tejas and remain the same size in sqd size as it is now. See the issue?

By 2038, you will have 11 Squadrons of Tejas Mk1A, and if Tejas Mk1 upgraded to Mk1A, then around 15. And 3-4 squadrons of Tejas Mk2, and hopefully 1 squadron of AMCA mk1. Also we should remember CATS starts to come online by then.

Furthur, as have I explained, you dont need 1:1 replacement.

You can pretty much discount TejasMK2 and AMACA till around 2040.

Why? Now you are just daydreaming. There are risk associated with AMCA because of certain technologies, but not with Tejas Mk2. Even they are so confident, that first prototype of Tejas Mk2 would be production variant.

By then PAF and PLAAF will pretty much be entirely 4.5th/5th gen going by PAF current induction rates and PLAAF induction rates.

Even USAF is not going to be fully 5th gen, even by 2050. Leave alone PLAAF or PAF.
USAF always depend on force-mix, same case with IAF.

The only answer to this for India is to make a very large order of a foreign fighter and assemble it in India. Issue is

F-21 = V upgrade very good, but feel IAF psychologically will not accept an F-16
F-15 = Very expensive and usefulness against stealth debatable
F-18E/F = Production ended/ending
Gripen = Good option, but very similar to Tejas but can give numbers quickly
F-35 = Not on table
SU-57 = Hard for Russia to commit to any mega deal right now I imagine

Looks like you need to bit the bullet and just order 120 Rafales or KF-21 (uses F414 engine so that can be handy)

Now you must be joking. We not going to buy any of this aircrafts, rather MKI UPG and Rafale in limited numbers, which is already happening.

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And if you know, we are already indigenizing DFCC for MKI. Now you can connects the dots.