HAL LCA Tejas: Updates, News & Discussions

[kaku]

This is at the root of my request to Indian members not to make statements that generate ridicule.

Why?
SABR only advantage is, that its a UWB radar, while Uttam going to be WB, but thats only useful in frequnecy hopping. Furthur, Uttam going to work better in heavy EW environment, because of dedicated SLC/SLB antennas.

But even comparing peak power, as it is mentioned here, SABR is of 10 kW.

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While for Uttam please refer to post #365, the peak power going to be 9.1 kw with thermal load of 3.6 kw.

What is special about SABR, that it is generating ridicule while comparing with Uttam/Tejas Mk1A?

 

[moonaman.varavayi]

However, that was not my main point. My point was that in a one-on-one fight between the Tejas MK1A and the F-16 Block 70, the Tejas has the advantage of detecting and engaging the F-16 first, given its radar range and radar cross section.

You have a very naive view of aerial combat. We don't know how the RCS of the Tejas compares with that of the latest generation F-16s, and even if we did, RCS is not the be all and end all of air warfare.

There is a reason why the USAF, which had thousands of F-16s, still relied on the much larger F-15s for air superiority. Heavier aircrafts can house much more powerful jammers, much more powerful radars, have much more agility and maneuverability, carry many more missiles (BVR and WVR), carry much heavier loads for ground attack, and so on.

By your logic, India's MKIs would be useless against the PAF, due to their large RCS.

 

[harpy1]

Those suggesting Mark1a to be superior to block 70 viper have it wrong
Viper 70 is in best 4th generation fighter in the world alongside Rafale..

However Tejas mark1a would be equal to or better against all the Pakistani fleet maybe slightly inferior to J10c at best

Unfortunately against Plaaf it's not enough

I can see why Pakistan is inducting j10c now
Your mirage and F7 are obselete
The earlier block thunders have inferior airframe no Aesa radar
The F16 is the earliest version block 30 with just 18block 52which are strike orientated again no Aesa radars

For this reason I see Pakistani air force scrambling for J31 and J10c

 

[Joe Shearer]

Why?
SABR only advantage is, that its a UWB radar, while Uttam going to be WB, but thats only useful in frequnecy hopping. Furthur, Uttam going to work better in heavy EW environment, because of dedicated SLC/SLB antennas.

But even comparing peak power, as it is mentioned here, SABR is of 10 kW.

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While for Uttam please refer to post #365, the peak power going to be 9.1 kw with thermal load of 3.6 kw.

What is special about SABR, that it is generating ridicule while comparing with Uttam/Tejas Mk1A?

One simple reply and that's it.

Evaluating an air battle does not equate to comparing two pieces of equipment, or even two aircraft, on a piecemeal basis. Telling ourselves that a Tejas radar system is high-powered means nothing. The entire support system on both sides has to be taken into account. How each contending side deals with its resources and capabilities has to be taken into account.

We are not comparing the Tejas radar to the F 16 radar here. That metric is one of the least relevant. We are comparing the overall capability of the F 16 support system with the Tejas support system, and we are also comparing the use made of these in the recent past.

I hope you get the point that we are not picking out carrots for carrot soup.

 

[kaku]

One simple reply and that's it.

Evaluating an air battle does not equate to comparing two pieces of equipment, or even two aircraft, on a piecemeal basis. Telling ourselves that a Tejas radar system is high-powered means nothing. The entire support system on both sides has to be taken into account. How each contending side deals with its resources and capabilities has to be taken into account.

We are not comparing the Tejas radar to the F 16 radar here. That metric is one of the least relevant. We are comparing the overall capability of the F 16 support system with the Tejas support system, and we are also comparing the use made of these in the recent past.

I hope you get the point that we are not picking out carrots for carrot soup.

You want to add AEW&CS into the soup? or want to add how MKI UPG + Tejas Mk1A are going to be totally emission silent, utilizing LPI and radar fingerprinting techniques? You want to do it, be my guest.
Some even suggested that LCA Mk2 going to be inferior than F-16 Block 70. I mean c'mon.

This nonsense and shitting on your own projects going on for long time, and for no reason whatsoever, and just because of ignorance.

BTW, even those who were calling Tejas Mk1A as inferior, werent adding as you called Tejas support system.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You want to add AEW&CS into the soup? or want to add how MKI UPG + Tejas Mk1A are going to be totally emission silent, utilizing LPI and radar fingerprinting techniques? You want to do it, be my guest

It is not a question of what I want to do.
It is a question of evaluating and estimating the effectiveness of the entire eco-system. These fanciful ideas sound good on an Internet discussion. If they were correct, we would not need either Rafales or SU 30s, Tejas Mk1A would do everything including preparing the arati plate for the offering at Varanasi.

This nonsense and shitting on your own projects going on for long time, and for no reason whatsoever, and just because of ignorance.

Remove the ignorance. Show that you know enough about it, instead of behaving like a soda-water bottle that has been shaken very violently.

BTW, even those who were calling Tejas Mk1A as inferior, werent adding as you called Tejas support system.

I have no idea what you mean by that. Feel free to explain, once you have stopped fizzing.

 

[kaku]

Here comes the patronising tone. I want to but not going to answer it, it’s a waste of time at this point.

But a point worth pondering, if the case is we still have to buy Rafale or go for SU-30 MKI UPG even after Tejas Mk1A or Tejas Mk2, but then why US after developing F-35 have to go for F-15 EX or F-16 V upgrade?

But this logic is only for IAF, don’t work in USAF case.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Here comes the patronising tone. I want to but not going to answer it, it’s a waste of time at this point.

There was nothing patronising said or intended. If you have a logical construction to suggest, do so, and avoid wrapping yourself in a mantle of offended dignity and avoiding any answers.

But a point worth pondering, if the case is we still have to buy Rafale or go for SU-30 MKI UPG even after Tejas Mk1A or Tejas Mk2, but then why US after developing F-35 have to go for F-15 EX or F-16 V upgrade?

Isn't that precisely the point that was made? That it is an entire system that is involved, and not an individual plane, or the components attached to an individual plane? Would it help to broaden your mental horizons if you asked, candidly, what was the force composition of the PAF during their retaliatory raid on us on the 27th February 2019? Or why the PAF deployed Mirage IIIs, Mirage Vs, JF 17s, and probably F 16s (they alternately deny and assert that part)?

But this logic is only for IAF, don’t work in USAF case.

With that sarcastic sentence, all your obfuscation is taken care of. Of course.

 

[Oscar]

To keep it relevant to South Asia
The comparison is between Tejas v paf F16 block 30/52 not block v
Which the Tejas will never face thankfully
In this South Asian context encounter Your F16 and Tejas in Bvr scenarios my edge goes to Tejas it's RCS is less than half of your falcons the cockpit tech is mordern and the Ew suites jammers are superior.

However in dogfight the str the energy and range means your falcons have the edge ..

In both scenarios it's close call because even the earlier f16 are excellent fighters

Block 70 f16 wins easy

PAF Block-15MLU will eat Tejas Mk1
Somewhat matched with non-UTTAM Mk1A but with an AIDEWS it is superior
Outmatched in terms of Radar by Mk1A but not by number of really good missiles it can lob and evenly matched or a little better with ALQ-184
Outmatched completely by Mk2



PAF block-52 -
Mk1A outmatched in radar but the kit on board is still very very effective.

The issue is RCS both by virtue of size and design

For e.g even the JF-17 Block-2 is able to sneak up on block-52s at times and Block-3’s kit is vastly superior in some ways to what is expected to be on MK1A… again, not by some coincidence.

Your guys tell the intel gathering mechanisms themselves whats coming and they(PAF) plan beyond it… at the end, I cannot be more politically correct on this aspect - the opposite sex and especially fairer skinned one is your(Indian man’s) Achilles heel.

I don’t wish to say that as an insult but as a frank conveyance on what Ive heard has been most successful in gathering intelligence. Just so I don’t seem like Im pushing a one sided narrative and not to derail it - the Pakistani achilles heel is the dollar.
Show a dollar and get Pakistanis coming to you wagging their tails - show them an exit out of Pakistan and they will raise their butts to you and twerk them.

Either way, the point is that Tejas Mk1A will surpass PAF-16 fleet as a whole totality and also JF-17 in some ways but then the PAF knows this and is planning for it. They rely on waiting for you to take the step and since are not burdened with anything other than funding issues - will make the immediate procurement to jump ahead when the time is right.

The problem is, and to end the vs discussion here, is that resources are only getting more tight for PAF and the IaF is (finally) getting more efficient in procurement.

 

[HAIDER]

Don't understand why so much Teja hype. Its still in testing stage, composed of all imported parts. Non AG or AA weapon testing has done yet.

 

[kaku]

There was nothing patronising said or intended. If you have a logical construction to suggest, do so, and avoid wrapping yourself in a mantle of offended dignity and avoiding any answers.

instead of behaving like a soda-water bottle that has been shaken very violently.

Indeed that wasn’t patronising, it was praising me.

Isn't that precisely the point that was made? That it is an entire system that is involved, and not an individual plane, or the components attached to an individual plane? Would it help to broaden your mental horizons if you asked, candidly, what was the force composition of the PAF during their retaliatory raid on us on the 27th February 2019? Or why the PAF deployed Mirage IIIs, Mirage Vs, JF 17s, and probably F 16s (they alternately deny and assert that part)?

Ohh, I did it several time on this forum too, not going to go into again to win a brownie point against you.

With that sarcastic sentence, all your obfuscation is taken care of. Of course.

Na, god only bestowed the right of sarcasm only to you.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Its still in testing stage, composed of all imported parts.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Indeed that wasn’t patronising, it was praising me.


Ohh, I did it several time on this forum too, not going to go into again to win a brownie point against you.

Na, god only bestowed the right of sarcasm only to you.

So well put, not a single point that I can dispute.

 

[Joe Shearer]

PAF Block-15MLU will eat Tejas Mk1
Somewhat matched with non-UTTAM Mk1A but with an AIDEWS it is superior
Outmatched in terms of Radar by Mk1A but not by number of really good missiles it can lob and evenly matched or a little better with ALQ-184
Outmatched completely by Mk2



PAF block-52 -
Mk1A outmatched in radar but the kit on board is still very very effective.

The issue is RCS both by virtue of size and design

For e.g even the JF-17 Block-2 is able to sneak up on block-52s at times and Block-3’s kit is vastly superior in some ways to what is expected to be on MK1A… again, not by some coincidence.

Your guys tell the intel gathering mechanisms themselves whats coming and they(PAF) plan beyond it… at the end, I cannot be more politically correct on this aspect - the opposite sex and especially fairer skinned one is your(Indian man’s) Achilles heel.

I don’t wish to say that as an insult but as a frank conveyance on what Ive heard has been most successful in gathering intelligence. Just so I don’t seem like Im pushing a one sided narrative and not to derail it - the Pakistani achilles heel is the dollar.
Show a dollar and get Pakistanis coming to you wagging their tails - show them an exit out of Pakistan and they will raise their butts to you and twerk them.

Either way, the point is that Tejas Mk1A will surpass PAF-16 fleet as a whole totality and also JF-17 in some ways but then the PAF knows this and is planning for it. They rely on waiting for you to take the step and since are not burdened with anything other than funding issues - will make the immediate procurement to jump ahead when the time is right.

The problem is, and to end the vs discussion here, is that resources are only getting more tight for PAF and the IaF is (finally) getting more efficient in procurement.

It all finally hinges on production.

If we can produce 36 to 42 a year, we get to flood the skies with the cheap, efficient point interceptor that was to replace the huge and totally unmaintainable MiG21 fleet. If the MiG fleet is replaced within three or four years, we have a distinct asset; it is of course assumed that somebody, somewhere will continue to work on BVR missiles, and on the capability of hanging a number of them off the Tejas. The roadblock is likely to continue to be the engine, even if HAL or a production partner managed to produce enough airframes, since GE has already signalled that they will be able to provide only a limited number every year.

The PAF reaction is the rational one. They have clearly decided to adopt a JIT - Just In Time - strategy, with just enough JF17s coming on board to neutralise the opposing aircraft, with just enough upgradation and enhancement to neutralise Indian technical progress, and with a possibility of adopting J10s and J31s to acquire a superiority over the IAF. Since they can't do anything else, this is what they are doing, and, besides that, they are training as much as they can jam in.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

You have a very naive view of aerial combat. We don't know how the RCS of the Tejas compares with that of the latest generation F-16s, and even if we did, RCS is not the be all and end all of air warfare.

There is a reason why the USAF, which had thousands of F-16s, still relied on the much larger F-15s for air superiority. Heavier aircrafts can house much more powerful jammers, much more powerful radars, have much more agility and maneuverability, carry many more missiles (BVR and WVR), carry much heavier loads for ground attack, and so on.

By your logic, India's MKIs would be useless against the PAF, due to their large RCS.

War is never solely about one fighter jet battling another, it involves an integrated approach including AWACS, drones, surface-to-air missiles, and several other systems working in conjunction. The US has built an entire ecosystem around the F-16, just as India has developed a comprehensive system around the Su-30MKI.