India Lucky Not To Lose More Than Four Rafales

Why do you think it happened that way?



Because its stupid to carry out deep strikes on bases without performing SEAD/DEAD missions, especially when the Indians had S400 in place.

We did test their air defenses with several loitering munitions on the nights of 8th/9th.

India actually carried out vertical escalation when they struck our air bases with Brahmos. The response from PAF and Pak army, which came after it was massive, several more targets were added to the hit list than what would have been otherwise had our air bases not been attacked.
 
The plan was always there to retaliate with counter strikes on ground on limited scale - that's something which even IAF chief also highlighted where he mentioned that India offered Pakistan to actually call off things on 7th. However per the IAF chief Pakistan refused and said "ab hum maren gy uskay bad dekhen gy". And that sent some serious panic into Indian side.

However, i think that actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise for India. They joined heads together. Quickly worked out on why their planes were shot out of sky. Decided to keep IAF away from PL-15s, fly lesser but better planned sorties, launch loitering munitions on PAF Air Defence assets and bring SSM BrahMos into plan to minimize the risk factor for IAF.

And it worked for India - atleast from the "optics" and public face saving point of view.

From Pakistan's point of view - not that Pakistan launched their strikes on any lesser scale. Atleast 26 locations in india were targeted. But unless they bring actual evidence for damage on ground - the optics favor the indian side.

What i think is - we shouldn't have waited for indian to begin assault on our bases. Like swift retort - the response should have come faster. The indians were already in the awe of what had just happened to their planes. They were shocked. Better to exploit it to your advantage right away than to wait for them to re-work their startegy.

Now what enforced ceasefire? It's because India, Pakistan and US all wanted it. Everybody could see things were heading to disaster. Pakistan because, we didn't have an immediate solution to the problem of "India has BrahMos in large numbers so even 50-60% interception rate was not helpful". India because, they knew what would happen if Pakistan decides to move to next tier of strike options and the kind of targets including economic hubs which Pakistani side threatened to hit - and ofcourse the trade threats by US also came into play.

Very good points. I have been saying since day one that GHQ messed up the initiative and handed India space to regroup and reorganize. This was done due to the hesitance by GHQ and its leadership’s obsession with “maturity and restraint.” Historic opportunity wasted and he promoted himself to Field Marshall to honor his achievements.

PAF has always done Pakistan proud but they are kneecapped by the sub-IQ generals at GHQ.
 
shed some light into whats happened at kamra
I think he is talking about the 2012 Minhas air base TTP attack in which we lost a Saab 2000 Erieye and other Erieyes were damaged since Minhas air base was not targeted/hit during the Indian strikes in May
 
Because its stupid to carry out deep strikes on bases without performing SEAD/DEAD missions, especially when the Indians had S400 in place.

We did test their air defenses with several loitering munitions on the nights of 8th/9th.

India actually carried out vertical escalation when they struck our air bases with Brahmos. The response from PAF and Pak army, which came after it was massive, several more targets were added to the hit list than what would have been otherwise had our air bases not been attacked.

No, its the rat occupying the office of COAS and his henchmen wheeling and dealing with Trump admin to get off ramp. That was THE issue of any dithering and late response from our side. The psyche that has entrenched into the higher echelon of army, where control over Pakistan's affair is more important then India, these people are simply not fit for the purpose, and they drag other services due to their own malfunctioning.
 
Very good points. I have been saying since day one that GHQ messed up the initiative and handed India space to regroup and reorganize. This was done due to the hesitance by GHQ and its leadership’s obsession with “maturity and restraint.” Historic opportunity wasted and he promoted himself to Field Marshall to honor his achievements.

PAF has always done Pakistan proud but they are kneecapped by the sub-IQ generals at GHQ.

Dude are your really from holy lands? You say and know things which many old timers here either refuse to accept or simply cant register.

On "maturity and restraint", the real reason was for Asim Muneer and his henchmen to get into good books of Trump admin and open the channel. These people were counting on Biden to retain the Presidency. Pentagon and CIA has help Muneer and Co to get into Trump good books. This event was used just for personal interests, "maturity and restraint" is the lollipop given to those who gladly suck on it.
 
Dude are your really from holy lands? You say and know things which many old timers here either refuse to accept or simply cant register.

On "maturity and restraint", the real reason was for Asim Muneer and his henchmen to get into good books of Trump admin and open the channel. These people were counting on Biden to retain the Presidency. Pentagon and CIA has help Muneer and Co to get into Trump good books. This event was used just for personal interests, "maturity and restraint" is the lollipop given to those who gladly suck on it.

Agreed with you. Asim Munir acted the way he did to get the Trump meeting and victory lap.

What holy lands are you referring to?
 
No problem - i never expect anyone from india to believe it and even some of Pakistanis, too - sounds very bizarre thing.

But i have seen the "additional" evidence myself. In addition to whatever is available on the internet.
You will find that many Pakistanis agree with your assessment.

It is entirely plausible and indeed, very probable. The EW and jamming of Indian telemetry was so substantial, the panic induced from the PAFs dominance so complete, the genuine possibility that an "air raid" on IOK was taking place (e.g. recall Shiv Aroor's tweet) all contributed to India's degraded ability to recognise targets accurately in their own airspace. This isn't some mythological scenario.

We know they have shot down their own helicopter in the last such engagement. It is plausible that they fired on their own missiles and even their own aircraft this time round also.
 
@side-winder

what i know is from 7-10 May Indian IADS (Specifically S-400 SAM Battery) at Adampur Tried its best to shoot down PAF aircraft in Pakistan Territory.

Make PAF HIMAD HQ-9BE first ever missile to missile kill when it took out S-400 (40N6E)

first ever in southeast asia!
 
The plan was always there to retaliate with counter strikes on ground on limited scale - that's something which even IAF chief also highlighted where he mentioned that India offered Pakistan to actually call off things on 7th. However per the IAF chief Pakistan refused and said "ab hum maren gy uskay bad dekhen gy". And that sent some serious panic into Indian side.

However, i think that actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise for India. They joined heads together. Quickly worked out on why their planes were shot out of sky. Decided to keep IAF away from PL-15s, fly lesser but better planned sorties, launch loitering munitions on PAF Air Defence assets and bring SSM BrahMos into plan to minimize the risk factor for IAF.

And it worked for India - atleast from the "optics" and public face saving point of view.

From Pakistan's point of view - not that Pakistan launched their strikes on any lesser scale. Atleast 26 locations in india were targeted. But unless they bring actual evidence for damage on ground - the optics favor the indian side.

What i think is - we shouldn't have waited for indian to begin assault on our bases. Like swift retort - the response should have come faster. The indians were already in the awe of what had just happened to their planes. They were shocked. Better to exploit it to your advantage right away than to wait for them to re-work their startegy.

Now what enforced ceasefire? It's because India, Pakistan and US all wanted it. Everybody could see things were heading to disaster. Pakistan because, we didn't have an immediate solution to the problem of "India has BrahMos in large numbers so even 50-60% interception rate was not helpful". India because, they knew what would happen if Pakistan decides to move to next tier of strike options and the kind of targets including economic hubs which Pakistani side threatened to hit - and ofcourse the trade threats by US also came into play.
Imagine PAF sticking to its gun and advantage on May 7th and taking out a lot more Rafales and MKIs.........that would have reduced the launch platforms that IAF could use in the subsequent days to launch their air launched missiles.

I really hope they have analyzed and are preparing for next scenario with increased vigor........

@side-winder
 
Imagine PAF sticking to its gun and advantage on May 7th and taking out a lot more Rafales and MKIs.........that would have reduced the launch platforms that IAF could use in the subsequent days to launch their air launched missiles.

I really hope they have analyzed and are preparing for next scenario with increased vigor........

@side-winder
The issue isn’t just PAF. The decisions are made in lieu with overall leadership and they were pretty dithering and conservative.
Remember even with Swift retort Gen B was saying no retaliation and only few supported it. IK was on the fence.

Here Shehbaz(with Big brother vociferously calling him) was pushing towards no. Chief was pro strike but had something else in mind but otherwise the entire cabinet was worried about consequences
 

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