Iranian Air Force (IRIAF/IRGC-ASF) | News and Discussions

[Hack-Hook]

they tried that with mirage III

RAAF never operated the Mirage F-1

 

[Immortals]

the fact that they do , and yes from 2 km away you are welcome trying to go that near to enemy aircraft.
its not korean war anymore

Yet vast majority of A2A kills since 1980 has been in visual range. BVR is a myth. Even in Gulf War the only BVR hits were on ancient fighter jets lacking proper equipment and whose pilots didn’t take any countermeasures.

While I agree I wouldn’t want to be sent to any airspace with a heat seeking missile and no radar, my point is BVR is a joke and most kills happen in visual range even in modern era.

This all backed by a study done by USAF pilots. And they determined BVR at a much more forgiving [shorter] distance and still most BVR missiles failed even when two were fired.

As for Iran-Iraq war BVR kill claims. Iraq didn’t really have BVR capability and Iran’s capability lies mostly with F-14A

 

[Hack-Hook]

Yet vast majority of A2A kills since 1980 has been in visual range. BVR is a myth. Even in Gulf War the only BVR hits were on ancient fighter jets lacking proper equipment and whose pilots didn’t take any countermeasures.

While I agree I wouldn’t want to be sent to any airspace with a heat seeking missile and no radar, my point is BVR is a joke and most kills happen in visual range even in modern era.

This all backed by a study done by USAF pilots. And they determined BVR at a much more forgiving [shorter] distance and still most BVR missiles failed even when two were fired.

As for Iran-Iraq war BVR kill claims. Iraq didn’t really have BVR capability and Iran’s capability lies mostly with F-14A

AIM-120 is a joke?
Meteor is a joke?
Ok you made your point, tell that to Ukrainian mig-29 pilots, tell that to Abhinandan Varthaman
but I disagree with you

 

[tsunset]

AIM-120 is a joke?
Meteor is a joke?
Ok you made your point, tell that to Ukrainian mig-29 pilots, tell that to Abhinandan Varthaman
but I disagree with you

His point is that BVR missiles had very little use in real combat which is true, not that BVR missiles are useless jokes

It should be taken into account that in the wars usually one party had the more weapons (US, Russia), Russia shot down plenty of aircraft with R-37, Meteor has never been used in combat, i don't know the use of aim-120 but it should be against drones which costs the launcher a ton of money like they did in Yemen to shoot down sad tomani drones

These are expensive, barely combat proven, even in modern war it has seen limited use and most kills were visual range with non-BVR weapons and even machine guns

 

[Hack-Hook]

His point is that BVR missiles had very little use in real combat which is true, not that BVR missiles are useless jokes

It should be taken into account that in the wars usually one party had the more weapons (US, Russia), Russia shot down plenty of aircraft with R-37, Meteor has never been used in combat, i don't know the use of aim-120 but it should be against drones which costs the launcher a ton of money like they did in Yemen to shoot down sad tomani drones

These are expensive, barely combat proven, even in modern war it has seen limited use and most kills were visual range with non-BVR weapons and even machine guns

AIM-9x is not a vvr misile anymore it has 20 mile range and you guys argue on a mute point aim-9 need radar to effectively lock on target , after the radar of aircraft feed the target to it it use its seeker to go after the target.
also latest model of aim-9 cost about 400000$ so they are not that cheap

 

[tsunset]

AIM-9x is not a vvr misile anymore it has 20 mile range and you guys argue on a mute point aim-9 need radar to effectively lock on target , after the radar of aircraft feed the target to it it use its seeker to go after the target.
also latest model of aim-9 cost about 400000$ so they are not that cheap

I didnt mention Aim-9x but the fact that BVR efficacity is not totally combat proven and that most kills are made with vvr missiles or machine gun even in modern conflicts

We've seen plenty of time Saudis using Aim-120 against sad tomani drones

 

[Hack-Hook]

I didnt mention Aim-9x but the fact that BVR efficacity is not totally combat proven and that most kills are made with vvr missiles or machine gun even in modern conflicts

We've seen plenty of time Saudis using Aim-120 against sad tomani drones

who told you must kills made with machine guns and as i said even wvr missiles need to get initial data from radar



your data are simply old data the newer we look the number of bvr increase

 

[Immortals]

who told you must kills made with machine guns and as i said even wvr missiles need to get initial data from radar

View attachment 16739

your data are simply old data the newer we look the number of bvr increase

Read the studies done. I posted about it extensively on old forum in a previous debate with DrMeson. I trust US airforce pilots opinions who led the study.

BVR used =/= BVR range. If you read you will see pilots were using BVR missile in close combat [non BVR range] in history.

In Gulf War the few long range kills were against fleeing old Iraqi fighters without proper countermeasure systems who didn’t appear to take any evasive action. Thus even USAF questioned the effectiveness against the opponent.

You are entirely optimistic if you think BVR going to get kills beyond 50-75KM CONSISTENTLY against modern fighters who call pull significant G forces.

Not to mention Radar/fighter jet mabuverabiltuy/subsystems have all dramatically advanced since 1980s and 1990s - only further assisting fighter jets to evade and stay clear from BVR.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Read the studies done. I posted about it extensively on old forum in a previous debate with DrMeson. I trust US airforce pilots opinions who led the study.

BVR used =/= BVR range. If you read you will see pilots were using BVR missile in close combat [non BVR range] in history.

In Gulf War the few long range kills were against fleeing old Iraqi fighters without proper countermeasure systems who didn’t appear to take any evasive action. Thus even USAF questioned the effectiveness against the opponent.

You are entirely optimistic if you think BVR going to get kills beyond 50-75KM CONSISTENTLY against modern fighters all who call pull significant G forces.

Not to mention Radar/fighter jet mabuverabiltuy/subsystems have all dramatically advanced since 1980s and 1990s - only further assisting fighter jets to evade and stay clear from BVR.

maneuverability do shit against modern air to air missiles and the study you mention are about AIM-7 and Vietnam war
pakistan f-16 hit indian su30-MKI from 100+ km away with AIM-120 . do you have doubt about those su-30-MKI maneuverability and the pilot was not a normal pilot , he was a seasoned and experienced one who more than that was a trainer for other pilots

 

[tsunset]

maneuverability do shit against modern air to air missiles and the study you mention are about AIM-7 and Vietnam war
pakistan f-16 hit indian su30-MKI from 100+ km away with AIM-120 . do you have doubt about those su-30-MKI maneuverability and the pilot was not a normal pilot , he was a seasoned and experienced one who more than that was a trainer for other pilots

Late Vietnam war can still be considered as a basis for modern wars without superpowers

pakistan f-16 hit indian su30-MKI from 100+ km away with AIM-120

Show us when did India lost or got a Su-30 damaged during the skirmishes, i only see one MiG-21 crashed

Even today in modern Russia Ukraine war, kills are made using guns and R-27 is the king of the kills

We didn't see any of the BVR such as Meteor, PL-15, Aim-120 (besides shooting sad tomani drones with it) in combat use performing well, they barely and never have been used in combat, the only ones are Aim-54 and R-37 in current war that have good results, the two Iraq US wars use of them proven bad performances against fleeing Iraqi fighters that weren't even doing evasive manoeuver and had bad countermeasure and completely outdated electronics

 

[Hack-Hook]

Late Vietnam war can still be considered as a basis for modern wars without superpowers

if you consider AIM-7 equal to AIM-120c7 and AIM-120D then ok

 

[Hack-Hook]

Even today in modern Russia Ukraine war, kills are made using guns and R-27 is the king of the kills

yeah no r-77 and r-27

 

[Hack-Hook]

We didn't see any of the BVR such as Meteor, PL-15, Aim-120 (besides shooting sad tomani drones with it)

when was the last time there was chance to use them and they failed ?
the last time they were used was by turkey an all hit target
On 23 March 2014 a Turkish Air Force F-16 from 182 Squadron shot down a Syrian Arab Air Force MiG-23BN with an AIM-120C-7.[17]

On 24 November 2015 a Turkish Air Force F-16 shot down a Russian Su-24M strike aircraft with an AIM-120 missile over northern Syria after it allegedly crossed into Turkish airspace.[18]

On 1 March 2020, Turkish Air Force F-16s downed two Su-24s belonging to the Syrian Air Force using two AIM-120C-7s.[19][20][failed verification]

On 3 March 2020, a Syrian Air Force L-39 was shot down over Idlib by Turkish Air Force F-16s from inside Turkish airspace with AIM-120C-7 at a distance of about 45 km (28 mi). As of 2020, this has been the longest range AIM-120 kill.


and recent use by usa
On 18 June 2017, a US Boeing F/A-18E Super Hornet engaged and shot down a Sukhoi Su-22 of the Syrian Air Force over northern Syria,[11] using an AIM-120. An AIM-9X Sidewinder had failed to bring down the Syrian jet. Some sources have claimed the AIM-9X was decoyed by flares,[12][13][14] although the F/A-18E pilot, Lieutenant Commander Michael "MOB" Tremel stated it was unclear why the AIM-9X failed, mentioning no use of flares by the Su-22, saying "I [lost] the smoke trail, and I have no idea what happened to the missile at that point".[15][16]
wonder what Syrian air-force managed to achieve with wvr missiles

 

[tsunset]

when was the last time there was chance to use them and they failed ?
the last time they were used was by turkey an all hit target
On 23 March 2014 a Turkish Air Force F-16 from 182 Squadron shot down a Syrian Arab Air Force MiG-23BN with an AIM-120C-7.[17]

On 24 November 2015 a Turkish Air Force F-16 shot down a Russian Su-24M strike aircraft with an AIM-120 missile over northern Syria after it allegedly crossed into Turkish airspace.[18]

On 1 March 2020, Turkish Air Force F-16s downed two Su-24s belonging to the Syrian Air Force using two AIM-120C-7s.[19][20][failed verification]

On 3 March 2020, a Syrian Air Force L-39 was shot down over Idlib by Turkish Air Force F-16s from inside Turkish airspace with AIM-120C-7 at a distance of about 45 km (28 mi). As of 2020, this has been the longest range AIM-120 kill.

wonder what Syrian air-force managed to achieve with wvr missiles

Those are incidents, not combat usage, all of them were unaware they had either crossed the airspace or that they were in danger of being downed

You are really taking the L-39 incident as a combat usage?

Some of the sources are also noted as unverified

 

[Hack-Hook]

Those are incidents, not combat usage, all of them were unaware they had either crossed the airspace or that they were in danger of being downed

You are really taking the L-39 incident as a combat usage?

Some of the sources are also noted as unverified

yeah sure they were incident like when AIM-9x failed due to counter measure and they used Aim-120 to bring down syrian su-22. the pilot was not aware of f-18 and just accidentally released the chafs

if the BVR is so overrated then what is this


In March 2019, the US Department of State and Defense Security Cooperation Agency formally signed off on a US$240.5 million foreign military sale to support Australia's introduction of the NASAMS and LAND 19 Phase 7B program. As part of the deal, the Australian government requested up to 108 Raytheon AIM-120C-7 AMRAAM, six AIM-120C-7 AMRAAM Air Vehicles Instrumented; and six spare AIM-120C-7 AMRAAM guidance sections.[81]

In December 2019, the United States Congress approved the sale of AIM-120C-7/C-8 to the Republic of Korea. According to the Federal Register document, the AIM-120C-8 is a refurbished version of AIM-120C-7, which replaced some discontinued parts with equivalent commercial parts and its capabilities are identical to AIM-120C-7.[82] This was the first time the C-8 version of AMRAAM has appeared in the US arms sales contract. Later, Japan, the Netherlands, the UAE, Spain and Norway received approval to purchase AIM-120C-8s.[83][84] In November 2021, Saudi Arabia received approval to purchase 280 AIM-120C-7/C-8s.[85]

Canada, United Kingdom, Australia and Norway have been approved to purchase the AIM-120D. Norway ordered 205 AIM-120D and 60 AIM-120D3 in November 2022.[86]

In mid 2023 Germany has requested the purchase of more than 1,000 AIM-120 C8 missiles in addition to the MBDA Meteor which are to be used by the German Air Force.[87]

In November 2023, the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration signed a contract worth US$605 million to purchase the AIM-120C-8, replacing the older AIM-120B, which will be sold back to the US for further donation to Ukraine.[88]

In January 2024, Turkish Air Force ordered 952 AIM-120C-8 AMRAAM included in a larger package of sales worth over 23 Billion USD.[89]



by the way if you so much believe about Vietnam war data and think they still are applicable, this one is fantastic show of how effective AIM-9 is
In total 452 Sidewinders were fired during the Vietnam War, resulting in a kill probability of 0.18