Iranian Air Force (IRIAF/IRGC-ASF) | News and Discussions

[Immortals]

So for a missile like the R-77 basic which follows a straight line this wont be the case - but since you do have simplistic ideas - Ill actually be more realistic and talk to boost phases and free coasting assuming the target isnt maneuvering.

Your assuming the target is not maneuvering how is that realistic? In what world is that realistic?

A) I literally wrote the target was maneuvering in the OPPOSITE direction of the missile (away from it). Re-run your calculations since you clearly misquoted me and ran a completely different “experiment”. A 5th gen fighter jet with supercruise or even afterburner will be moving at Mach 2+ followed by your example of a Mach 4+ BVR

B) In what reality do you detect a 5th gen fighter (LO RCS) at 100KM using onboard radar and maintain illumination of the target at such distance while it’s maneuvering? The optimistic scenarios you run is hilarious.

You seem to have this notion that it’s fire and forget. Nothing of the sort, the second that pilot loses his targeting data (ie fighter jet dived into mountain valley or other maneuvering tactics) what will the BVR missile do? At Mach 4 it is traveling over 1.3KM EVERY SECOND. So it doesn’t take a long time for the missile to go off course a tremendous distance and waste precious fuel it has in its body.

D) The opposing fighter jet being targeted has tremendous amount of variables and paths he can take in open space so I’m curious how this seeker on board this BVR missile or even the radar and targeting system onboard the fighter jet it came from can calculate any rudimentary trajectory of an enemy jet in open space.


NOTE: I casually browse this forum (and the old PDF and the old IMF) on my phone so in depth responses take a long time and so does pulling and researching data vs a computer and the copy pasta you dropped in this thread. Thus I avoid it and talk laymen’s terms since it’s easier and I don’t want to spend 2 hours typing a response to an internet stranger who can just Google and form his own [incorrect] opinion. No brownie points for being right here on PDF, just wasted time.

 

[Hack-Hook]

these BVR missiles are many times ramjet assisted to boost to Mach 3/4, but they simply cannot turn like a fighter jet can at that speed without being crushed.

do they need to?
you talk as if you think air defence missiles have to chase every move the fighter planes , the answer is no they don't have to. they only make small correction when they decide the target is moved outside the place they are supposed to hit

in this the red is target the blue is missile and the missile don't go after the target

 

[Immortals]

do they need to?
you talk as if you think air defence missiles have to chase every move the fighter planes , the answer is no they don't have to. they only make small correction when they decide the target is moved outside the place they are supposed to hit

in this the red is target the blue is missile and the missile don't go after the target

Come on.

This works if BVR is extremely short distances say less than 25 KM following a relatively simple trajectory (as your example shows).

At distances of 100KM+ the pilot has 180 degrees of open space in front of him and the equivalent in latitude to use to lose the BVR. No BVR in the world or onboard computer can simulate an interception point based on that many variables.

In case of Iranian SU-35S pilot can dive downward into mountain valleys or get lost among ground noise. He only needs to lose lock for a very short term time for the A2A missile to go off by a large distance as it travels at 1.3KM/S

It’s even harder than a ground based interceptor trying to calculate an interception point on an HGV. Same concept of a ballistic trajectory (simple) going to a more random altering trajectory.


Also let’s be real, in case of 5th/6th gen air warefare you are not maintaining a lock on .01m2 or .001m2 object at 100KM nor is the seeker on BVR. Just not happening, you know it. I know it. The lord knows it. BVR is set to become even more irrelevant in 5th and 6th Gen warfare. IFF tech is poor just look at how many friendly fire incidents happening in since PGulf War I or even in Ukraine vs Russia war. You aren’t shooting BVRs at long distances in dense contested airspace, the risk is very high you might hit your own guy due to magnitude of reasons.

You need support assets next gen-UCAV or AWACs or ground based radars or other forms of ISR along the airspace in question to find and provide you updated tracking to “catch” a VLO fighter. Or if you are alone you have to get VERY VERY close (ie visual range) somehow. Again Not my words, but words from a study published on air warfare till 2040 based on significant data points, pilot interviews, military engagement protocols .

LASLT, THERE IS HUNDREDS IF NO THOUSANDS OF CASES OF DOCUMENT GROUND BASED INTERCEPTION PERFORMANCE OF AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS AGAINST PLANES/DRONES/HELICOPTERS SINCE 1990. THIS CAN BE CALCULATED AS FACTUAL WAR TIME DATA.

YOU CAN COUNT ON 1-2 HANDS THE AMOUNT OF BVR ENGAGEMENTS SINCE 1990 AND THE RESULTS ARE SHORT OF EXPECTATIONS BY A LARGE MAGNITUTDE.

THIS IS FACT. I WONT DEBATE THIS. I WONT DEBATE THEORTICAL INTERCPETION OR HIGHLY CONTROLLED WAR GAMES! READ THE STUDIES I POSTED! STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH!

[NOTE: ACTUAL WAR TIME IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WITH HUNDREDS OF UNKNOWN VARIABLES. WE SAW THIS WITH A2A PERFORMANCE IN WVR DROP SIGNIFICANTLY IN VITENAM AND OTHER CONFLICTS COMPARED TO HIGHLY CONTROLLED EXPERIMENTS.]

 

[Immortals]

This should educate those who think warfare is like movies and missiles are magical fire & forget weapons.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1755889118926545129

Look at how Ukraine has to operate near frontlines. It also shows how you can evade not only fighter jets equipped with BVR but long range air defense systems like S-300/S-400

 

[Hack-Hook]

This works if BVR is extremely short distances say less than 25 KM following a relatively simple trajectory (as your example shows).

At distances of 100KM+ the pilot has 180 degrees of open space in front of him and the equivalent in latitude to use to lose the BVR. No BVR in the world or onboard computer can simulate an interception point based on that many variables.

no , he need to move 20km and the missile only need 5 degree correction of its trajectory to compensate for that at that distance. and bvr don't simulate that , why they need to do that , they need to just compensate several degree when the target deviated a certain amount out of their path. no Air to Air missile chase target outside Hollywood.
and why you believe the pilot will be aware of the missile 180km away.

In case of Iranian SU-35S pilot can dive downward into mountain valleys or get lost among ground noise. He only needs to lose lock for a very short term time for the A2A missile to go off by a large distance as it travels at 1.3KM/S

wrong , if he dive he loose altitude that means he loose energy and that work only if you face Vietnam era AIM-7 or you are Tom Cruise

Also let’s be real, in case of 5th/6th gen air warefare you are not maintaining a lock on .01m2 or .001m2 object at 100KM nor is the seeker on BVR. Just not happening, you know it. I know it.

i thaught our 90% of armies use 4th generation fighter and some people here claim Su-35 FLIR which is one of the shittiest ones in the world can detect 5th generation fighter at distance more than 40km which is BVR the last time i checked

This should educate those who think warfare is like movies and missiles are magical fire & forget weapons.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1755889118926545129

Look at how Ukraine has to operate near frontlines. It also shows how you can evade not only fighter jets equipped with BVR but long range air defense systems like S-300/S-400

the question is how mighty Russian air-force operate in Ukraine ?

 

[Immortals]

no , he need to move 20km and the missile only need 5 degree correction of its trajectory to compensate for that at that distance. and bvr don't simulate that , why they need to do that ,

In order to intercept it is making linear calculations about where the fighter jet is headed when distances are beyond visual range.

Or in case of some missile they do top attack profile like Iran’s Phoenix or Massoud or whatever it’s called today.

You think it’s 1970’s and maintaining lock on a 10m2 RCS in jam free environment.

they need to just compensate several degree when the target deviated a certain amount out of their path. no Air to Air missile chase target outside Hollywood.

This is simply wrong. You maintain magical lock on target, with magical Missile that predicts the exact interception point 80KM away, the only one talking Hollywood is you.

and why you believe the pilot will be aware of the missile 180km away.

Do you realize target has to be illuminated? Illumination causes radiation, radiation causes early warning subsystems to go off. Sure a poor Syrian SU-22 lacks such systems, but the enemy you will be fighting will be using 5th/6th gen fighters. Unless you plan to wage an aerial war against Azerbaijan.

It is exactly why Iran used IO/IR to locate Global Hawk and target from 75KM away so the enemy would not realize it is being illuminated. Global Hawk was towing a radar anti measure system. Even Iran said the operator never realized they were target till just before the end.

The optical data was feed to a passive radar deeper inside Iran and that radar sent back targeting coordinates which Iran fed to Sayyad missile alongside the optical data to reach the sector.

By the time the target was illuminated it was by Sayyad during its sector scan and not by ground radar. Sayyad missile does a top attack maneuver.

wrong , if he dive he loose altitude that means he loose energy and that work only if you face Vietnam era AIM-7 or you are Tom Cruise

It doesn’t matter if he loose energy, at a distance of 100KM with a Mach4 chasing a Mach 2 as soon as he get low enough the ground noise or valley will block the signal.

Then what will your magical missile do? What will your magical aircraft radar do?

i thaught our 90% of armies use 4th generation fighter

Iran only true enemy is US. US will use primarily 5th gen fighter.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia are going to be having 5th gen fighter in 2030’s (Turkey with its own program and a Saudi Arabia signed to buy South Korean 5th gen fighter).

I don’t see war with either country on the horizon the real threat is US(and it’s satellite Israel).

and some people here claim Su-35 FLIR which is one of the shittiest ones in the world can detect 5th generation fighter at distance more than 40km which is BVR the last time i checked

SU-35 can detect at 40-45KM that is nothing special. Iran has IO/IR optics that can detect at 75KM+ Just look at global Hawk 2020 and RQ-170 2010.

the question is how mighty Russian air-force operate in Ukraine ?

Here we go…now the RAF is not “mighty”, but your F-14 with 50 year old missile is “mighty”.

They mighty enough to force fighter jets down to tree cover to be able to pop up and fire HARM.

 

[Persian Gulf]

First known Bavar-373 LR SAM site (Tehran)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1756238797266673723

 

[Immortals]

First known Bavar-373 LR SAM site (Tehran)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1756238797266673723

When I suggested Bavar-373 is not deployed fully due to Supreme leader still using S-300 when he travels. Also due to lack of satellite imagery or video or components traveling by highway by civilians, people mocked me.

Well….seems common sense only belongs to us few these days.

 

[Persian Gulf]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1756626150183330200

 

[Persian Gulf]

When I suggested Bavar-373 is not deployed fully due to Supreme leader still using S-300 when he travels. Also due to lack of satellite imagery or video or components traveling by highway by civilians, people mocked me.

Well….seems common sense only belongs to us few these days.

Bavar-373 is not some mobile ambush system, it's huge with a lot of components, and Iran's main AD sites are well known within OSINT communities let alone professional communities, so I agree. finally being spotted is encouraging and hopefully a prelude to at least 4-5 batteries entering service within a few years

also: my mistake, I meant to post that in AD thread not here

 

[Immortals]

Bavar-373 is not some mobile ambush system,

And yet the S-300 system travels when Supreme Leader visits other provinces. We see this from civilians video them on highways during transit. The reason is because to have effective and range the batteries need to be close by to what they are defending.

S-300 doesn’t have unlimited range. It’s missiles are 200KM I think (too lazy to look it up) unless Iran got the Sayyad-4 equivalent as well.

not to mention during war the systems are meant to move around to avoid being targeted by a saturation attack like Ukraine did to a Russian S-300 set up last Year.

Iran also (in my opinion) didn’t purchase enough battalions in the intial order for a country the size of Iran with lots of mountains and blind spots.

 

[tsunset]

40-60 Bavar 373 LR battalions with Sayyad 4B should be enough to cover all Iranian territory, 5-10 S-400 battalions would also be great to mix the systems like China does

Coupled with SHORAD such as Majid and Medium range AD with latest versions of 3rd Khordad and 15th Khordad, SPAAGs on sensible sites

This with 250/300 various modern fighter jets and ALBM bombers, air-to air missiles equipped attack helicopters, that can communicate within all the IADS and Iran would be able to protect every single land and have maximum deterrence against enemies will to conduct airstrikes

 

[kaz96]

There is no military/government program to purchase own AD system like Bavar or Khordad15 to cover Iranian territory. It's so sad.

 

[Hack-Hook]

5-10 S-400 battalions would also be great to mix the systems like China does

no s-400 in any aspect except the range of its non-export missile is inferior or on par with Bavar , if we manage to deliver 40-60 Bavar why we must import 5-10 s-400 , instead of building more mobile 3rd of Khordad , Mehran and Tactical Sayyad with it ? why not develop a more potent version of Majid to be used against drones or 9th of day ?

 

[Hack-Hook]

There is no military/government program to purchase own AD system like Bavar or Khordad15 to cover Iranian territory. It's so sad.

its more like there is no program endorsed by open media as they are busy promote s-400 and other Russian system
in reality IRGC is silently strengthening its air defense system family based on Ra'ad project (3rd of khordad , 9th of khordad, Mehran) and defense ministry working slowly on Talash project (15th khordad, Tactical Sayyad, Bavar-373)