JF-17 PFX program

[RAMPAGE]

I've seen images of the JF-17 carrying the Raptor II (H-4 SOW) rocket-boosted glide guided bomb. Could you provide more information about this weapon system?

H-4 SOW is the local designation for Raptor-II, which was a product of the South African arms manufacturer Denel Dynamics. It was produced under license by Pakistan's NESCOM along with Raptor-I. Although it is no longer in production in either company, it remains in service in the PAF.

 

[PakAl]

The days of Pakistan "commissioning" and "funding" aircraft development teams in China are over. PAF learnt the hard way with the JF17 programme, that it is not the way to go. Pakistan learnt its lesson about collaborative projects with China from that episode that left a bad taste in PAFs mouths.

That is the reason why Pakistan refused to adopt the FC-31 when it was marketed so so aggressively to them as the "lead" customer. Pakistan was not interested in funding design teams in China anymore to design and build the FC-31, while not getting any of the intellectual property for itself and being forced to operate the platform as a sole customer while waiting for export orders to come in. It would much rather spend that money on projects in Pakistan, or purchase capability off the shelf directly from China.

So, Pakistan rebuffed all FC-31 pitches, and waited for China to pickup the FC-31 project, and make the J-35 project out of it on its own cost. Pakistan forced China's hand on that one as it did not want to get involved in a repeat of the FC-1 project again. So, the money Pakistan saved on not having to fund another aircraft development project for China's industry, it can use on procurements of actual military capability instead which is better for Pakistan.

China was meant to purchase an equal number of FC-1s as Pakistan was to, under the terms of the original agreement with China. China backed out of that agreement, and effectively forced Pakistan to fund the entire project to bring the JF17 to front line service. That development cost has come at the cost of not being able to purchase as many JF17 as it wanted to, as it spent so much on getting to JF17 platform developed. That is why it still has so many F7PGs and Mirages left, it ran out of money because it hand to fund the project alone effectively.

Some of us here are old enough to know about and remember the history of the Super7/FC1 at the beginning of the project and how both were meant to purchase equal numbers. China may have had good reasons to back out based on operational needs, but it set a precedent that PAF won't forget about for a while..

Pakistan has learnt its lesson from China's business antics and will be alot more careful about how it approaches projects in the future.

Jf17 has been a successful project, even if initially it cost us extras we saved millions on producing the plane in Pakistan, also selling to international customers. The reason for not producing more jf17 block 3 is not the cost, its the demand, we want to buy more J10CEs and J35s, they are next generation planes, with more range, powerful radar etc.

 

[PakAl]

LOL.

It's clear that you have a lot of complaints about China-Pakistan cooperation.
In your view, the JF-17 project is a classic example of a failed China-Pakistan collaboration.

That's okay. Let's wait and see!

100% successful project, but the plane is light weight, paf now wants to move towards medium weight planes.

 

[Oscar]

How?

Why do you talk about stuff pretending to be privy to details you are not?

Can PAC go to Russia for ANYTHING RD-93 related?

Why does PAC HAVE to go via CATIC for any RD93 support? Why does PAC not get access to Russian support and have to place orders for every nut and bolt to CATIC, who then places them to Russia and re exports to Pak?

Heck, why is PAC's RD93 MRO shop not even approved by Klimov...? Why did PAC and CATIC have to reverse engineer some aspects, and then others, setup without license?

Hint, as part of the agreement, PAC/PAF is not allowed to go direct to the OEMS, rather, MUST rely on CATIC. PAC does not even have catalogues and part numbers for Russian items, only Chinese ones, which CATIC translates into Russian ones

That being said - once the unlicensed workshop was set up there were folks who used to say a lot of Da and Nyet that spent some time there when those that said Dui.

 

[studsmart]

Jf17 has been a successful project, even if initially it cost us extras we saved millions on producing the plane in Pakistan, also selling to international customers. The reason for not producing more jf17 block 3 is not the cost, its the demand, we want to buy more J10CEs and J35s, they are next generation planes, with more range, powerful radar etc.

In addition to the above text, PAF is looking for blk3P/ PFX-Alpha and PFX Next Gen fighters. PAF is also evaluating/ investing in upgrading existing blk1/2 to blk3

 

[Starlord]

I guess this project will end like many others, a file or folder that sits in PAC's document warehouse gathering dust, or they might put some "Upgrades" and call it a PFX program. I think we should upgrade JF17's B2 to B3 standards (if possible & cost effective, considering how many years left in air frame) if not then just buy 2 more J-10CE sqs that will replace 40 older fighter jets, and if we do get some export orders and PAC got some Kharcha Pani then maybe raise 1-2 Block 3 Sqs. 5th Gen from scratch is not happening, by the time we get there the world will be moved to 7-8th Gen fighters.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I guess this project will end like many others, a file or folder that sits in PAC's document warehouse gathering dust, or they might put some "Upgrades" and call it a PFX program. I think we should upgrade JF17's B2 to B3 standards (if possible & cost effective, considering how many years left in air frame) if not then just buy 2 more J-10CE sqs that will replace 40 older fighter jets, and if we do get some export orders and PAC got some Kharcha Pani then maybe raise 1-2 Block 3 Sqs. 5th Gen from scratch is not happening, by the time we get there the world will be moved to 7-8th Gen fighters.

I think we can make an indegenous 4.5++ fighter only if we have the complete funding. I still think maybe maybe saudi can fund these on the premise that when it is in production we will install local production facility in saudi too?

 

[Starlord]

I think we can make an indegenous 4.5++ fighter only if we have the complete funding. I still think maybe maybe saudi can fund these on the premise that when it is in production we will install local production facility in saudi too?

Bhai funding ka rona tu humesha hai, we always have money issue. Its like the curse of Pakistan along with bad decision making babus (like many pointed out here). And I think we should stop thinking about the KSA funding any major defense project in Pakistan, I mean they could if they will take something out of it, but KSA babus swimming in oil and bathing in Gold, they can buy every American top of the line system, heck they can even hire Americans to fire it for them. I don't see any incentive besides the Jazba of helping the poor Al-Bakistani Military establishment.
we have talent but not utilized properly, living in USA teaches me one thing that you have to hire the best person for the job based on merit not based off family connection and sir name, hence everything in America works effectively and efficiently, while everything in Pakistan is either a Jugaar aur Dhakka Start.

 

[Ak01]

I think we can make an indegenous 4.5++ fighter only if we have the complete funding. I still think maybe maybe saudi can fund these on the premise that when it is in production we will install local production facility in saudi too?

it took us a decade to deliver turkish air force mushaks... just factor that in when you judge our ability to develop new platforms.

and also- those mushaks were RIDDLED with problems!

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Bhai funding ka rona tu humesha hai, we always have money issue. Its like the curse of Pakistan along with bad decision making babus (like many pointed out here). And I think we should stop thinking about the KSA funding any major defense project in Pakistan, I mean they could if they will take something out of it, but KSA babus swimming in oil and bathing in Gold, they can buy every American top of the line system, heck they can even hire Americans to fire it for them. I don't see any incentive besides the Jazba of helping the poor Al-Bakistani Military establishment.
we have talent but not utilized properly, living in USA teaches me one thing that you have to hire the best person for the job based on merit not based off family connection and sir name, hence everything in America works effectively and efficiently, while everything in Pakistan is either a Jugaar aur Dhakka Start.

I have less hope myself but KSA ko b tau iska faida hoga? agar IP b unkay saat share ki jaaye ya yun kah le KSA kay liye hum jahaz bana kay de rahay 4.5+ ka

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

it took us a decade to deliver turkish air force mushaks... just factor that in when you judge our ability to develop new platforms.

and also- those mushaks were RIDDLED with problems!

Won't we ever bring about change? How long will we keep going on like this?

 

[Ak01]

Won't we ever bring about change? How long will we keep going on like this?

Pakistan combines the worst of communism, and the worst of capitalism into one.

god knows whether we'll even be alive to see this mess fixed

 

[Zarvan]

This plane is crucial for us. Plus, Pakistan should make sure Arabs invest in it and technological help comes from Turkiye.

 

[Starlord]

I have less hope myself but KSA ko b tau iska faida hoga? agar IP b unkay saat share ki jaaye ya yun kah le KSA kay liye hum jahaz bana kay de rahay 4.5+ ka

Bhai I am gonna be honest with you, I can't tell you whether we can develop and share IP (whatever that is) with KSA, there are many members related to that field that can tell you why its difficult and no possible or even if possible why that project will face many hurdles.

I just know that we do have very talented people, people who want to serve, do business and genuinely help Pakistan defense and industrial capacity, but because of how our national psyche has develop where merit is replace by nepotism and high ranking babus playing " mujhe sab kuch pata hai " game than we will always struggle. Baqi umeed pe tu duniya Qaim hai, we can only hope that we just have enough capability to keep Bindo's at bay and occasionally bombing Afghando's to keeping them in check. We need to fix our economy, with money in pocket we can do more (considering corruption can be controlled as well).

 

[maxpane]

guys can you guessZ? i just screen shot it . is it pfx model on wall. its written as nexr generation fighter aircraft. there is a work going on other projects too