JF-17 PFX program

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Having a new Radar, IRST and Missile integration , EW does makes it a Legitimate candidate to be called Block IV (PFX)

The JF17-Block III just had a new Radar introduced , would be interesting what will emerge which is more potent then the Radar on Block III which is literally Top of Line stuff

Being 100% Pakistan Variant , will be quite an exciting project

 

[Toxic]

A 100% Pakistani variant is not possible anytime soon but one with a Pakistani radar, IRST and Pakistani A-A missiles is possible In the next 5 years or so.

 

[JamD]

@JamD What's your current take on PFX? Is it just eyewash?

Too early to say. However, most likely PFX will (at least initially) be an effort to make the JF-17 100% indigenously. What this entails in terms of the electronics and upgrades is probably up in the air at this point. They key things to do are:
1. Convince China to transfer all of the structural manufacturing to PAC. This will probably require a lot of investment on our part: especially building new factory lines for the additional components that will be manufactured in Pakistan.
2. Decide what kind of avionics package you want to go for: do you want to delink it from China via the Turks (this will be a slow and painful process) or do you want to sweeten the deal for the Chinese for 1 by sticking with Chinese avionics? Maybe PL15 is reason enough to stick with the Chinese avionics stack.

The flags on the PFX slide suggested a desire to delink from the Chinese but the realities, especially after the May 2025 skirmish might force us to remain with the Chinese for reasons I've described above.

So like I said, very uncertain.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Diversification , is only real addition with Indigenous JF-17 (PFX)

Classified Radar Specs (Unknown Element)
Classified Missile Specs/Ranges / Un limited Ammo
Classified Capabilities
Aggressor Role

It's not necessarily De-linking from Chinese systems , obviously our fleet has multiple systems so close integration is must , may be we will also have Turkish Tech in future to work closely with

It is more to do with Learning lessons from Chines Engineers, and in past using French Mirage Engineering and US engineering to apply the knowledge in a Local Effort. Also some recent exposure to Turkish Tech with Drone series and Targeting pod used on thunder

Create something new, which can be maintained locally ?

The Avionics segment of PAF is new branch so these are baby steps , I would be curious to know what comes out of the whole Process

The JF-17 Block III is tremendous machine , just what we need, Radar and Missile just perfect for our need , defensive need.

• It is beautiful Machine

But the PFX is bit about dreaming and imagining new concepts we never did before
It's a nice way to challenge Local Engineering base to see what they can "Dream" and what can they develop

Will it be a Exploratory Project? , will it expand to 30-50-60 Birds ?

Too early to tell

We did gad great success with Trainers

• Super Mushshak (Trainer)
• K-8 (Trainer, Ground Mission craft)
• JF17 Block 1, Block ii, Block iii (Joint effort)
• PFX is a new challenge (Exploration - Ambition- Testing new waters)

J-35 : Trusting a trusted Manufacturer
KAAN : One of best European Emerging Manufacturer

 

[Dreamer]

Too early to say. However, most likely PFX will (at least initially) be an effort to make the JF-17 100% indigenously. What this entails in terms of the electronics and upgrades is probably up in the air at this point. They key things to do are:
1. Convince China to transfer all of the structural manufacturing to PAC. This will probably require a lot of investment on our part: especially building new factory lines for the additional components that will be manufactured in Pakistan.
2. Decide what kind of avionics package you want to go for: do you want to delink it from China via the Turks (this will be a slow and painful process) or do you want to sweeten the deal for the Chinese for 1 by sticking with Chinese avionics? Maybe PL15 is reason enough to stick with the Chinese avionics stack.

The flags on the PFX slide suggested a desire to delink from the Chinese but the realities, especially after the May 2025 skirmish might force us to remain with the Chinese for reasons I've described above.

So like I said, very uncertain.

what is 100% indigenous?

Engine will remain russain/chinese. No?

Most likely Aesa radar also remain chinese.

So what is 100% indigenous?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

We will have to wait and find out when first prototype is released in future

When we will see JF17-Block III , and PFX parked side by side and someone is giving a demo of what is new in PFX and flight demo with radar and weapons loaded only than we can truly know how far the knowledge development has grown

 

[Michael]

1. Convince China to transfer all of the structural manufacturing to PAC. This will probably require a lot of investment on our part: especially building new factory lines for the additional components that will be manufactured in Pakistan.
2. Decide what kind of avionics package you want to go for: do you want to delink it from China via the Turks (this will be a slow and painful process) or do you want to sweeten the deal for the Chinese for 1 by sticking with Chinese avionics? Maybe PL15 is reason enough to stick with the Chinese avionics stack.

I mentioned a long time ago that CAC would like to turn over the JF-17 airframe manufacturing completely to PAC. it would be burdensome for CAC to keep the JF-17 airframe manufacturing-specific apparatus.
So Pakistan doesn't need to convince China to transfer them, only Pakistan needs to increase PAC's investment to give it full airframe manufacturing capability.
It would be relatively easy for Pakistan to achieve 100% indigenous production of JF-17 airframes. Its only obstacle is the determination of the Government of Pakistan and the investment in the equipment involved.


As for other subsystems of JF-17. It is almost impossible for Pakistan to achieve complete indigenous production. It involves a very large and very comprehensive industrialization capability.
At the same time, Pakistan is very close to some of China's “hostile countries”. China will not interfere in the internal affairs of these Pakistanis, but it will not allow a lot of key core technologies to be leaked to “hostile countries” through Pakistan. Therefore, the possibility of core technology transfer is almost non-existent.

Meanwhile, the subsystems of the Chinese-supplied JF-17 do not belong to CAC (they belong to other Chinese military-industrial complexes). In other words, these subsystems are not part of the cooperation agreement between China and Pakistan for the JF-17 program.
Of course, if Pakistan decides to develop the JF-17 independently, he certainly has the right to re-select subsystems other than those from Chinese suppliers. At this point, the JF-17 will no longer have anything to do with China.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Too early to say. However, most likely PFX will (at least initially) be an effort to make the JF-17 100% indigenously. What this entails in terms of the electronics and upgrades is probably up in the air at this point. They key things to do are:
1. Convince China to transfer all of the structural manufacturing to PAC. This will probably require a lot of investment on our part: especially building new factory lines for the additional components that will be manufactured in Pakistan.
2. Decide what kind of avionics package you want to go for: do you want to delink it from China via the Turks (this will be a slow and painful process) or do you want to sweeten the deal for the Chinese for 1 by sticking with Chinese avionics? Maybe PL15 is reason enough to stick with the Chinese avionics stack.

The flags on the PFX slide suggested a desire to delink from the Chinese but the realities, especially after the May 2025 skirmish might force us to remain with the Chinese for reasons I've described above.

So like I said, very uncertain.

Two questions.

1. Do we have the human resources to absorb 100% technology?

2. Does it make sense to produce it 100% indigenously considering we already have a sizable fleet and are unlikely to produce many more of them?

 

[JamD]

what is 100% indigenous?

Engine will remain russain/chinese. No?

Most likely Aesa radar also remain chinese.

So what is 100% indigenous?

Sorry. I should've written 100% indigenous STRUCTURE, which is what I meant.

 

[JamD]

I mentioned a long time ago that CAC would like to turn over the JF-17 airframe manufacturing completely to PAC. it would be burdensome for CAC to keep the JF-17 airframe manufacturing-specific apparatus.
So Pakistan doesn't need to convince China to transfer them, only Pakistan needs to increase PAC's investment to give it full airframe manufacturing capability.
It would be relatively easy for Pakistan to achieve 100% indigenous production of JF-17 airframes. Its only obstacle is the determination of the Government of Pakistan and the investment in the equipment involved.


As for other subsystems of JF-17. It is almost impossible for Pakistan to achieve complete indigenous production. It involves a very large and very comprehensive industrialization capability.
At the same time, Pakistan is very close to some of China's “hostile countries”. China will not interfere in the internal affairs of these Pakistanis, but it will not allow a lot of key core technologies to be leaked to “hostile countries” through Pakistan. Therefore, the possibility of core technology transfer is almost non-existent.

Meanwhile, the subsystems of the Chinese-supplied JF-17 do not belong to CAC (they belong to other Chinese military-industrial complexes). In other words, these subsystems are not part of the cooperation agreement between China and Pakistan for the JF-17 program.
Of course, if Pakistan decides to develop the JF-17 independently, he certainly has the right to re-select subsystems other than those from Chinese suppliers. At this point, the JF-17 will no longer have anything to do with China.

Agreed on all points.

 

[JamD]

Two questions.

1. Do we have the human resources to absorb 100% technology?

2. Does it make sense to produce it 100% indigenously considering we already have a sizable fleet and are unlikely to produce many more of them?

1. I meant structures when I said 100%. And for structures, yes.

2. We are likely to produce more. We still have a lot of mirages to replace and f7pgs, and eventually F-16s.

 

[Michael]

1. I meant structures when I said 100%. And for structures, yes.

I have no relevant hard evidence, I can only guess.

PAC production of a complete airframe (without subsystems) for the JF-17B3 may have encountered obstacles:

1. heavy equipment. Certain key parts of the aircraft have core structural components which are physically very demanding (mainly in terms of withstand and strain). We generally employ heavy-duty forging machines to manufacture them using a high-pressure forging process. These machines are very expensive and only very few countries have them and they have very high export restrictions on them.

2. Specialty materials. Pakistan is unlikely to have production capacity for these materials. China should be able to export these materials to Pakistan, but there will certainly be some restrictions.

3, composite material processing capacity. For example, carbon fiber composite skins and so on.

I'm not sure about PAC's current capabilities. I guess most of the capabilities they currently lack are on top of the Chinese technology control list.
If Pakistan wishes to import these equipment and technologies from China, it should require very stringent commitments and guarantees. China is not worried about Pakistan having these technologies and equipment. However, China cannot allow certain countries to gain access to Chinese technology secrets through Pakistan.

 

[Mohid Afzal]

Agreed on all points.

Question is, will it be worth it in the long run? As good as the B3 is, we can't deny the fact that the aircraft has reached it's limit in terms of upgrades. To further enhance the JF-17, it's airframe needs to be enlarged and the needs a new and more powerful engine, at the same time it will no longer be in the light weight category. Moreover, seeing how fast technology is improving, PAF will need something with better endurance and survivability, something which the B3 won't have. So let me ask again, is it worth localizing a platform that may no longer be needed by the next decade or so?

 

[Michael]

To further enhance the JF-17, it's airframe needs to be enlarged and the needs a new and more powerful engine, at the same time it will no longer be in the light weight category.

So you think the PAC needs to redevelop a new version of the JF-17 similar to the J-10CE?

Moreover, seeing how fast technology is improving, PAF will need something with better endurance and survivability, something which the B3 won't have. So let me ask again, is it worth localizing a platform that may no longer be needed by the next decade or so?

The JF-17B3 will be around at PAF for at least another 10-20 years. Of course, that time could be longer.
You need to distinguish between continued production of JF-17B3 and continued development of JF-17B3. It is not the same thing.

As far as the complete JF-17B3 (including subsystems) is concerned, it is unlikely that Pakistan will be able to manufacture it completely independently for at least 30-50 years. But as far as the JF-17B3's airframe is concerned, it is possible for PAC to master the full manufacturing capability in a short period of time (special materials still need to be imported).

Only after PAC has fully mastered the manufacturing capability of the JF-17B3's airframe will they be able to move on to a higher level.

You first need to get good results in lower level competitions before you can participate in higher level competitions.

 

[Mohid Afzal]

So you think the PAC needs to redevelop a new version of the JF-17 similar to the J-10CE?


The JF-17B3 will be around at PAF for at least another 10-20 years. Of course, that time could be longer.
You need to distinguish between continued production of JF-17B3 and continued development of JF-17B3. It is not the same thing.

As far as the complete JF-17B3 (including subsystems) is concerned, it is unlikely that Pakistan will be able to manufacture it completely independently for at least 30-50 years. But as far as the JF-17B3's airframe is concerned, it is possible for PAC to master the full manufacturing capability in a short period of time (special materials still need to be imported).

Only after PAC has fully mastered the manufacturing capability of the JF-17B3's airframe will they be able to move on to a higher level.

You first need to get good results in lower level competitions before you can participate in higher level competitions.

You didn't understand. In my post, I was actually agreeing with what you said. Like you said, the JF-17 has reached it's peak. In order to enhance it further, it will have to be modified heavily. I never said that PAF should redevelop it to J-10c level.
Secondly, my question still stands, is it worth investing in a design that has already reached it's peak? It would only make sense to fully localize the JF-17 airframe IF we have plans on producing more but so far we have not seen anything of the sort.