JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[hasssanali8998]

Total LIE! Dr.A.Q.khan never said that for nuclear tech. Its a huge disservice you are doing to Pakistani scientists who in 70s to 90s worked with a sole mission to make Pakistan nuclear power.

infact DR AQ setup few enrichment plants for china . if i find the source i will send it here

 

[hasssanali8998]

Yea we should not be too optimistic for big tickets item, maybe some equipments for our sof...

probably our AHZ1s or f16 upgrades

 

[hasssanali8998]

Just trying to figure out the jist of your post, not sure if you're being sarcastic, but if security was really that bad, wondering why the Indians knew so little.

yeah it cant be that bad we are a nuclear nation .

 

[gamaji]

Without the emotions involved -
if you cannot provide how and what of 58% JF-17 Pakistan is making your point is conjecture and much like the claims on damage to additional Rafale's cannot be proved.

Technically, a lot of "indigenous" systems in Pakistan are assembly plainly because you lack the overall industrial base to provide what you need to assemble. So he may actually be right that the MKI is more Indian than the JF-17 because India has all of the industrial base from the point of raw material to where it is airframe ready aluminum or composite than Pakistan has to even Produce a K-8.

While you are on an abusive tangent please also think as to why Pakistan has to import Wasabi even if Sushi joints open in Pakistani cities like every entitled upper middle class to elite kid was born eating it... Or rather simply, how much oil do you import?
If you cannot produce something from Raw material to end - heck , even if you have raw to refine it - much like your textile industry at one point had to EXPORT COTTON AND GET MATERIAL BACK to complete it's products.
You talk to officials I will give you a first hand example.

Go to NRTC website.

The original "dabba" for this is from ASELSAN - the first few hundred probably more.
The entire initial firm ware and common board is from ASELSAN.
So essentially this is like buying a Dell computer with everything installed out of the box and the OS there.
Then, because of Pakistan specific EW and compression needs - the encryption board was designed on a Pakistani computer and then the design was sent to a factory in China(who sent rubbish examples initially before QC was coordinated with them).
We then worked on improving other things based on internal requirements, wrote software for various functions - how each key press would do what differently because ASELSAN sent the guides on how to interact with each component controller of the overall "box".

There was a newer motherboard developed for it as well, designed in Pakistan on the initial ASELSAN design - but the test boards for it came from US companies manufactured in China. We then ordered the exact chipset from the factory from China without the famous US company branding on it - but then they never performed exactly even though they were made in the same factory. Go figure.

Now, Once it was all put together in the initial days the box still said ASELSAN - but NRTC in their wisdom would put NTRC stickers on it and we in our usual "mischief" would randomly remove some.

Is it 70% Pakistani or 58% or even 20% Pakistani?
I cannot give you the exact figure - you could say its barely 10% based on the way everything was manufactured from raw materials to components which would be assembled in Pakistan - but then the design of many aspects were from Pakistan.

So when someone claims 58% Pakistani what does that mean?
The design is fully CATIC even if you had Pakistani engineers on site providing manpower assistance due to CATIC team stretched thin.
Your entire flight test program was conducted at manufacturer facility but you did provide test pilots for more advanced stages of test program.
The entire avionics suite was built in China which you now are able to assemble more and more so in house.
And much like the Radio example you put a Rhode and Scwartz radio initially onto it(or have they updated that @Quwa ? ) and sent the aircraft monitoring system contract to a US company which helps you keep track of what's what.
So you made changes to what you needed - provided suggestions back to factory - added systems from other places beyond China so that COUNTS FOR SOMETHING.

But when your screens started shutting off mid flight (this happened to the MKI as well!) because your entire system was made in China and you had little idea beyond the surface as to how it works and is all integrated(much like Indians did not bother taking notes from Thales on their MFDs) you scrambled to ask anyone and everyone including fanatics who once fought with the Taliban in Afghanistan for help.

So while you can throw out the abuses and Indian accusations and both you can ruin the thread - it is good to ask - what exactly do you assemble?
To India's credit - they can manufacture everything from a needle to a car with MOST of the raw material to finished product process happening in India. You still do CKDs for our 70cc motorcycles.

While I agree with you on most of the stuff that you have written, all this is off the mark/discussion with the gentleman. He was initially demeaning Chinese tech and then accusing China for "the rope being put around its neck lol".

No one disputes the argument that Pakistan needs to diversify its military imports and I am sure Pak is doing that. However, one shouldn't blame China (or any other country) for Pakistan's own shortcomings.

As for China, it has proved to be a true iron brother at any and every time of crises when Pak needed help, be it military supplies, Pakistan specific changes in big ticket items, satellite systems, nuke and missile program, war on Indian terrorism, diplomatic support, you name it. Above all, China invested billions of dollars under CPEC when no one was willing to invest a penny in Pakistan (quite contrary, the powerful half of the world wanted Pak go down the annuls of history).

If Pakistan could not really turn the CPEC into a success story is not Chinese fault. But it remains a fact, and the whole world recognizes it, that Pakistan was able to defeat and humiliate India in May with Chinese technology. Modi had one of world's best fighter jets, highly advanced BrahMos and European air to ground missiles, one of the best AD system, and the best Israeli drones along with teams of Zionist experts to actually launch these drones. In a way, Chinese tech defeated multiple top rated world class systems. True, it was Pakistani ingenuity of integrating and using all these systems in a very effective way but underlying tech was mostly Chinese.

While Pakistan should be (and indeed it already is) striving for the best available from all over the world, there is little benefit of accusing, abusing, or belittling Pakistan's Chinese iron brothers.

I have no personal grudge against anyone. Rather just trying to do my bit in support my mother country.

 

[gamaji]

Total LIE! Dr.A.Q.khan never said that for nuclear tech. Its a huge disservice you are doing to Pakistani scientists who in 70s to 90s worked with a sole mission to make Pakistan nuclear power. Nuclear field is such field that no country, even your best friend won't like to see another nuclear power in the world. Pakistan became nuclear power ONLY because of its own human resource. Dr.A.Qkhan was great at procuring stuff and sending his team members for knowledge seeking to various parts of world . Often those missions were in Western countries (and were very risky). Why would they do it if they had China available to help in everything ??

People often confuse nuclear commercial power plants and mix them with nuclear weapon tech. Chinese contribution is STRICTLY LIMITED to nuclear commercial power plants setups. and Yes China / Korea helped in missile stuff. Ghauris were initially Koreas help, Shaheen's earliest version had chinese help. Ghauris wasn't completely Nodong as people allege. The whole control system was written at KRL, and various others bits but it was a starting point.

In the end, make sure never to spread this propaganda that china helped Pak become nuke power. Its massive disservice to all the scientists who literally dedicated their lives and sacrificed a lot for this endaveour. China did helped in missile tech and nuclear commercial power plants which are monitored by IAEA too for safety regulations.

I really appreciate your views. However, I am not making stories. I just stated what I read, i.e. Dr. AQ Khan's interviews with different people at different times.

BTW, that does not reduce or discredit the huge efforts made by Pak scientists, engineers, and technicians. Facts are already recorded in history. We cannot change the realities.

 

[side-winder]

Thunder Obsession.

 

[MirageV3ff]

Thunder Obsession.

View attachment 151837

Is that xi and Shareef in the bottom row??

 

[TopGun786]

Thunder Obsession.

View attachment 151837

Thats really bizarre.

 

[Dalit]

Thunder Obsession.

View attachment 151837

The Hindutva are promoting JF-17.

 

[Saifullah]

Germany: sold PAF all the stuff needed to do domestic upgrades to MPDR's, upgrading them into modern AESA arrays. Optronics for PAF's UAV fleet, Sub fleet. Air defence also on the cards. Submarines on the table.

Saab: Sold PAF Erieyes, which are integrated and modified to suit PAF operational needs. Not to mention other equiptment still on the table.

France: Literally tried to transfer the entire Mirage F1 production line to Pakistan- ToT of Agosta class, support for the program to this day. +Life support systems for JF-17. Heck, they even created a custom scorpene variant for Pakistan.

Spain: EW systems for the JF-17, HIT's AIMS is a spanish system.

Italy: Frigates, Submarines, Air defence, EW, Radars, etc...

UK: Literally offered PAF their Tranche 1 typhoons for free, alongside a new build typhoon deal.

Korea: Artillery, Aircraft, sensors all on offer.

USA: Literally basically built a huge chunk of PAF's ASR network via TPS77's and then a follow up sale of TPS77MRR in the previous trump admin. Also literally offered to sell F-16V's to PAF. Not to mention is targeting more aircraft sales to the PAF.

Chinese ToT- JF-17 assembly- not even ToT, Hangor i guess? HIT had some SERIOUS qualms with the Haider project @Lion and their 'TOT'.

Stop the dickriding, You're a customer for China, the same as you are for all these other states, transferring tech is ONLY possible if you can ABSORB the tech lol. Good call, Pak should request ToT for Typhoons, will we produce them at the roadside ?

There was some Chinese guy on Twitter claiming China is mad at Pakistan for sharing Chinese tech with Turkey and J-35 won’t be sold anytime soon for that reason. Is there any truth to that?

 

[HRK]

There was some Chinese guy on Twitter claiming China is mad at Pakistan for sharing Chinese tech with Turkey and J-35 won’t be sold anytime soon for that reason. Is there any truth to that?

Mostly fake account as discussed by @Michael in one of his post (as far as I remember).

 

[Sparten]

Without the emotions involved -
if you cannot provide how and what of 58% JF-17 Pakistan is making your point is conjecture and much like the claims on damage to additional Rafale's cannot be proved.

Technically, a lot of "indigenous" systems in Pakistan are assembly plainly because you lack the overall industrial base to provide what you need to assemble. So he may actually be right that the MKI is more Indian than the JF-17 because India has all of the industrial base from the point of raw material to where it is airframe ready aluminum or composite than Pakistan has to even Produce a K-8.

While you are on an abusive tangent please also think as to why Pakistan has to import Wasabi even if Sushi joints open in Pakistani cities like every entitled upper middle class to elite kid was born eating it... Or rather simply, how much oil do you import?
If you cannot produce something from Raw material to end - heck , even if you have raw to refine it - much like your textile industry at one point had to EXPORT COTTON AND GET MATERIAL BACK to complete it's products.
You talk to officials I will give you a first hand example.

Go to NRTC website.

The original "dabba" for this is from ASELSAN - the first few hundred probably more.
The entire initial firm ware and common board is from ASELSAN.
So essentially this is like buying a Dell computer with everything installed out of the box and the OS there.
Then, because of Pakistan specific EW and compression needs - the encryption board was designed on a Pakistani computer and then the design was sent to a factory in China(who sent rubbish examples initially before QC was coordinated with them).
We then worked on improving other things based on internal requirements, wrote software for various functions - how each key press would do what differently because ASELSAN sent the guides on how to interact with each component controller of the overall "box".

There was a newer motherboard developed for it as well, designed in Pakistan on the initial ASELSAN design - but the test boards for it came from US companies manufactured in China. We then ordered the exact chipset from the factory from China without the famous US company branding on it - but then they never performed exactly even though they were made in the same factory. Go figure.

Now, Once it was all put together in the initial days the box still said ASELSAN - but NRTC in their wisdom would put NTRC stickers on it and we in our usual "mischief" would randomly remove some.

Is it 70% Pakistani or 58% or even 20% Pakistani?
I cannot give you the exact figure - you could say its barely 10% based on the way everything was manufactured from raw materials to components which would be assembled in Pakistan - but then the design of many aspects were from Pakistan.

So when someone claims 58% Pakistani what does that mean?
The design is fully CATIC even if you had Pakistani engineers on site providing manpower assistance due to CATIC team stretched thin.
Your entire flight test program was conducted at manufacturer facility but you did provide test pilots for more advanced stages of test program.
The entire avionics suite was built in China which you now are able to assemble more and more so in house.
And much like the Radio example you put a Rhode and Scwartz radio initially onto it(or have they updated that @Quwa ? ) and sent the aircraft monitoring system contract to a US company which helps you keep track of what's what.
So you made changes to what you needed - provided suggestions back to factory - added systems from other places beyond China so that COUNTS FOR SOMETHING.

But when your screens started shutting off mid flight (this happened to the MKI as well!) because your entire system was made in China and you had little idea beyond the surface as to how it works and is all integrated(much like Indians did not bother taking notes from Thales on their MFDs) you scrambled to ask anyone and everyone including fanatics who once fought with the Taliban in Afghanistan for help.

So while you can throw out the abuses and Indian accusations and both you can ruin the thread - it is good to ask - what exactly do you assemble?
To India's credit - they can manufacture everything from a needle to a car with MOST of the raw material to finished product process happening in India. You still do CKDs for our 70cc motorcycles.

You are comparing A radio....which IIRC was eventually licensed production by a different organization, to a joint manufacturing program? We produced pretty much all the 58% within Pakistan now. It was a specified part of the contract that the Chinese would assist us in setting up the line, and train the workers. "Assembly" may well have been accurate for the first few examples made in Pakistan,, but it most certainly isn't for most of the fleet. And I mean the provision of machine tools, technical support the whole lot.
Honestly the mess that our car industry (Honda I am looking at you) made has made people start saying ": assembly" for every little thing (funnily enough the automotive sector is a bit more complicated than that).

 

[Ak01]

He was initially demeaning Chinese tech and then accusing China for "the rope being put around its neck lol"

However, one shouldn't blame China (or any other country) for Pakistan's own shortcomings.

this is a comprehension issue on your part, it seems our people become extra jazbati over china and feel that China is more important than their own country lol.

once again- your inability to understand my statements is YOUR own problem, do not put words in my mouth.

 

[Ak01]

and after yesterday, what an amazing surprise, AIM120D/C8 and F-16V's up next i bet.

 

[Lion]

View attachment 151727


Id like you to tell me who did the US sell us the largest export AMRAAM order for...? taliban?

This is exactly what I want to tell everyone on both this and the other side of the border when they say stupid stuff like the PAF not being allowed to use its F16s freely against India.

IF the US wanted PAF to only use the F16s for COIN, why would they sell the PAF massive amounts of BVR missiles. Keep in mind this was when AIM120D wasn’t even a thing yet. The US made PAF a modern BVR capable Air Force, they did it on purpose.

Otherwise Egypt has an F16 fleet thrice the PAFs size but no BVR capability.