Jinnah Class Frigate | Updates & Discussion

[CSAW]

JCF is a key part of the PN MILGEM program.

PN ordered onto a joint-project with the principal contractor, ASFAT Inc. (Military Factor and Shipyard Management), to design, develop, and build an original frigate tailored for the PN’s Multi Mission Frigates requirements. based on the Turkish AS-3400 Collaborative design

PN officials have only recently begun to discuss the JCF in detail.

It seems that the JCF is an elaborate project. It involves the transfer of intellectual property (IP) of the JCF to Pakistan while also supporting an upgrade of KSEW to support the project.

The original design expertise and IP are crucial pieces. Traditionally, when the PN ordered ships based on ‘transfer-of-technology’ (ToT) agreements, the OEM would supply kits-of-materiel. In most situations, the OEM likely determined the selection of critical inputs, such as steel and propulsion.

However, with the JCF, Pakistan might gain the ability to control more of the cost by choosing the critical input suppliers. So, in theory, it could source the steel through a competitive bidding process, for example. By controlling the design/IP, the PN could potentially even open the tender to domestic suppliers, thereby incentivizing the private sector to develop indigenous alternatives…

CAMM-ER​

COMMON ANTI-AIR MODULAR MISSILE-EXTENDED RANGE​

• High rate of fire against multiple simultaneous targets
• Soft vertical launch technology for minimum launch signature and high performance
• Compact missile allows for multiple weapons fit in limited spaces
• Compatible with any surveillance sensor for targeting
• Vertical launch enabling 360° coverage in all launch sectors
• Minimal logistics support and maintenance required

CAMM-ER | FORCE PROTECTION, Ground Based Air Defence | MBDA

CAMM-ER, the Common Anti-air Modular Missile Extended Range, is from the CAMM family of next generation air defence missiles, designed for land, sea and air environments.

www.mbda-systems.com

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Do you want a rich England under Germany or a poor England Independent? - Jinnah answering a question on Pakistan's viability from a Brithish journalist Hector Bolitho

This ship is no poorman's frigate, but also independent from the cold clutches of the Imperialists.......

 

[Tank131]

With only 16cell VLS this ship is frankly underarmed. It can be overcome if they use MILDAS and get the CAMM-ER certified for for MILDAS with quadpack or source Sylver A50 for them. Otherwise would potentially need to replace Gokdeniz with something like Levent or Goksur PDMS to help with that gap.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

With only 16cell VLS this ship is frankly underarmed. It can be overcome if they use MILDAS and get the CAMM-ER certified for for MILDAS with quadpack or source Sylver A50 for them. Otherwise would potentially need to replace Gokdeniz with something like Levent or Goksur PDMS to help with that gap.

MILDSAs has already test-fired HISAR-D from TCG Istanbul frigate. The plan is to make it quad-pack, so 16x4=64 missiles (including CMs) capability...

TCG Istanbul fires Hisar-D missile from Midlas VLS

The Turkish Navy performed its first Hisar-D missile launch from the Midlas vertical launch system (VLS) installed onboard the TCG Istanbul in the second week of March.

www.janes.com

MİLDAS’ta Hedef: Quad-Pack ve Seyir Füzesi Atım Kabiliyeti

Roketsan, Milli Dikey Atım Sistemi (MİLDAS) ve MİLDAS’ta kullanılacak hava savunma füzeleri için çalışmalarını sürdürüyor. MİLDAS’ın testi, bu yıl yapılacak.

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[Tank131]

MILDSAs has already test-fired HISAR-D from TCG Istanbul frigate. The plan is to make it quad-pack, so 16x4=64 missiles (including CMs) capability...

TCG Istanbul fires Hisar-D missile from Midlas VLS

The Turkish Navy performed its first Hisar-D missile launch from the Midlas vertical launch system (VLS) installed onboard the TCG Istanbul in the second week of March.

www.janes.com

MİLDAS’ta Hedef: Quad-Pack ve Seyir Füzesi Atım Kabiliyeti

Roketsan, Milli Dikey Atım Sistemi (MİLDAS) ve MİLDAS’ta kullanılacak hava savunma füzeleri için çalışmalarını sürdürüyor. MİLDAS’ın testi, bu yıl yapılacak.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Again for MILDSA to be useful for PN at least in the near term, CAMM-ER needs to 1) get certified for use with MILDSA, AND 2) certified for quadpack. I dont see HISAR-D/RF being acquired by PN. For one thing, while the CAMM-ERs stated range of 45km+ is likely much lower than the actual range. Janes had reported that the standard CAMM (listed as 25km+ range) has actually been tested out to 60km. That tells me CAMM-ER true range is likely 80-100km and as such likely significantly outranges the HISAR-D/RF

 

[ENI]

The shipborne P-282 long-range anti-ship missile is interesting. A quick google indicates this is an anti-ship ballistic missile, without any other substantive information. It is not unreasonable to expect long-range ballistic missiles to have a hypersonic speed, at least at a certain point in the midcourse. However, a pure ballistic weapon has a relatively predictable midcourse flight, with limited or no ability to manoeuvre in the terminal phase.
What feature does this weapon have that makes it a hypersonic weapon as it is understood currently? Does it have at least a manoeuvring warhead? Glide vehicle?

 

[hussain]

The shipborne P-282 long-range anti-ship missile is interesting. A quick google indicates this is an anti-ship ballistic missile, without any other substantive information. It is not unreasonable to expect long-range ballistic missiles to have a hypersonic speed, at least at a certain point in the midcourse. However, a pure ballistic weapon has a relatively predictable midcourse flight, with limited or no ability to manoeuvre in the terminal phase.
What feature does this weapon have that makes it a hypersonic weapon as it is understood currently? Does it have at least a manoeuvring warhead? Glide vehicle?

The ability to antagonize, irritate, frustrate, bewilder, and eventually eternal peace for its opponents.

 

[Qureshi]

JCF is a key part of the PN MILGEM program.

PN ordered onto a joint-project with the principal contractor, ASFAT Inc. (Military Factor and Shipyard Management), to design, develop, and build an original frigate tailored for the PN’s Multi Mission Frigates requirements. based on the Turkish AS-3400 Collaborative design

PN officials have only recently begun to discuss the JCF in detail.

It seems that the JCF is an elaborate project. It involves the transfer of intellectual property (IP) of the JCF to Pakistan while also supporting an upgrade of KSEW to support the project.

The original design expertise and IP are crucial pieces. Traditionally, when the PN ordered ships based on ‘transfer-of-technology’ (ToT) agreements, the OEM would supply kits-of-materiel. In most situations, the OEM likely determined the selection of critical inputs, such as steel and propulsion.

However, with the JCF, Pakistan might gain the ability to control more of the cost by choosing the critical input suppliers. So, in theory, it could source the steel through a competitive bidding process, for example. By controlling the design/IP, the PN could potentially even open the tender to domestic suppliers, thereby incentivizing the private sector to develop indigenous alternatives…
CAMM-ER

COMMON ANTI-AIR MODULAR MISSILE-EXTENDED RANGE​

• High rate of fire against multiple simultaneous targets
• Soft vertical launch technology for minimum launch signature and high performance
• Compact missile allows for multiple weapons fit in limited spaces
• Compatible with any surveillance sensor for targeting
• Vertical launch enabling 360° coverage in all launch sectors
• Minimal logistics support and maintenance required

CAMM-ER | FORCE PROTECTION, Ground Based Air Defence | MBDA

CAMM-ER, the Common Anti-air Modular Missile Extended Range, is from the CAMM family of next generation air defence missiles, designed for land, sea and air environments.

www.mbda-systems.com

MILDSAs has already test-fired HISAR-D from TCG Istanbul frigate. The plan is to make it quad-pack, so 16x4=64 missiles (including CMs) capability...

Again for MILDSA to be useful for PN at least in the near term, CAMM-ER needs to 1) get certified for use with MILDSA, AND 2) certified for quadpack. I dont see HISAR-D/RF being acquired by PN. For one thing, while the CAMM-ERs stated range of 45km+ is likely much lower than the actual range. Janes had reported that the standard CAMM (listed as 25km+ range) has actually been tested out to 60km. That tells me CAMM-ER true range is likely 80-100km and as such likely significantly outranges the HISAR-D/RF

The shipborne P-282 long-range anti-ship missile is interesting. A quick google indicates this is an anti-ship ballistic missile, without any other substantive information. It is not unreasonable to expect long-range ballistic missiles to have a hypersonic speed, at least at a certain point in the midcourse. However, a pure ballistic weapon has a relatively predictable midcourse flight, with limited or no ability to manoeuvre in the terminal phase.
What feature does this weapon have that makes it a hypersonic weapon as it is understood currently? Does it have at least a manoeuvring warhead? Glide vehicle?

As stated in detail on post # 5 on the preceding page, Jinnah class FFGs will be built in batches (2+2+4) using AS3400 & AS3600 design & layout features.

Following are the expected tonnage & Weapon Systems:

1st batch (2 ships) - 3400T

1VLS - Quad pack 16cells CAMM-ER (~80km) with Sylver-A50/70
CIWS - single GOKDENIZ 35mm gun
PMDS - Levent with 11 cell SAMs
AShCM - Slant Launchers 2x4 (P-282 or CM-302)


2nd Batch (2 ships) - 3600T

2VLS (front & center) - Quad pack 16cells CAMM-MR (+100km) with Sylver-A50/70
CIWS - 2 Type 730 guns
PMDS - 16 missile salvo of HHQ-10
AShCM - Slant Launchers 2x4 (P-282 or CM-302)


3rd Batch (4 ships) - 4200T

2VLS (front & center) - Quad pack 32cells Siper -B2 (120km) with MIDLAS
CIWS - 1 Type 1130 gun
PMDS - 24 missile salvo of HHQ-10
AShCM - Slant Launchers 4x4 (YJ21)

 

[Qureshi]

Correction...

3rd Batch (4 ships) - 4500T

AShCM - Slant Launchers 2x4 (YJ-21) or 4x4 P-282/CM-302

 

[Awwad]

As stated in detail on post # 5 on the preceding page, Jinnah class FFGs will be built in batches (2+2+4) using AS3400 & AS3600 design & layout features.

Following are the expected tonnage & Weapon Systems:

1st batch (2 ships) - 3400T

1VLS - Quad pack 16cells CAMM-ER (~80km) with Sylver-A50/70
CIWS - single GOKDENIZ 35mm gun
PMDS - Levent with 11 cell SAMs
AShCM - Slant Launchers 2x4 (P-282 or CM-302)


2nd Batch (2 ships) - 3600T

2VLS (front & center) - Quad pack 16cells CAMM-MR (+100km) with Sylver-A50/70
CIWS - 2 Type 730 guns
PMDS - 16 missile salvo of HHQ-10
AShCM - Slant Launchers 2x4 (P-282 or CM-302)


3rd Batch (4 ships) - 4200T

2VLS (front & center) - Quad pack 32cells Siper -B2 (120km) with MIDLAS
CIWS - 1 Type 1130 gun
PMDS - 24 missile salvo of HHQ-10
AShCM - Slant Launchers 4x4 (YJ21)

Correction...

3rd Batch (4 ships) - 4500T

AShCM - Slant Launchers 2x4 (YJ-21) or 4x4 P-282/CM-302

Bro, this is your analysis. Not confirmed news.

IMO, I don't think PN will have any Jinnah FFG before 2030 even if Keel laying happens today. It will take minimum 6 years on its entire development lifecycle from keel laying to commissioning.

 

[Qureshi]

Bro, this is your analysis. Not confirmed news.

IMO, I don't think PN will have any Jinnah FFG before 2030 even if Keel laying happens today. It will take minimum 6 years on its entire development lifecycle from keel laying to commissioning.

Bro, I did not include any date; I only discussed the weapons/construction pattern/layout above & its not my assumptions but based on builders' analysis. I also always reiterate the JCF project completion by 2032/33.

Furthermore, the development phase, layouts, weaponry, and systems have already been decided upon; as a result, the date stated makes sense because building has now initiated.

 

[Tank131]

As stated in detail on post # 5 on the preceding page, Jinnah class FFGs will be built in batches (2+2+4) using AS3400 & AS3600 design & layout features.

Following are the expected tonnage & Weapon Systems:

1st batch (2 ships) - 3400T

1VLS - Quad pack 16cells CAMM-ER (~80km) with Sylver-A50/70
CIWS - single GOKDENIZ 35mm gun
PMDS - Levent with 11 cell SAMs
AShCM - Slant Launchers 2x4 (P-282 or CM-302)


2nd Batch (2 ships) - 3600T

2VLS (front & center) - Quad pack 16cells CAMM-MR (+100km) with Sylver-A50/70
CIWS - 2 Type 730 guns
PMDS - 16 missile salvo of HHQ-10
AShCM - Slant Launchers 2x4 (P-282 or CM-302)


3rd Batch (4 ships) - 4200T

2VLS (front & center) - Quad pack 32cells Siper -B2 (120km) with MIDLAS
CIWS - 1 Type 1130 gun
PMDS - 24 missile salvo of HHQ-10
AShCM - Slant Launchers 4x4 (YJ21)

What is your source for these loadouts or is this your observations? Because a few things here dont add up. Im not going to speculate about the 4200t ships because i haven't read anything about these possibilities. But the 3400t and AS3600T has been speculated to be the second batch of JCF.

That said from i understand regarding the 3400t JCF it will not have BOTH a Levent and Gokdeniz. Currently its slated for just the Gokdeniz. Now the platform of the Gokdeniz is shared with the 12 cell Goksur (formerly 11 cell Gokdeniz ER) which uses the Bozdogan missile. So this could be a possibility but i dont see both a PDMS and gun based CIWS on 3400T JCF. Additionally, i dont see France ever selling Sylver (made by France's Naval Group, formerly DCNS) to Pakistan or giving Turkiey access to it. Especially given how France wants more Rafale sold to India, possibly even more scorpene subs. Additionally, French and Turkish relations (well really Turkiey and most major NATO countries) are quite poor at the moment. MOST we would see is Pakistan getting Italy to allow MDAS/MILDAS to be certified for quad packed CAMM-ER. But neither SylverA50/70 nor Mk41 will find there way to ANY Jinnah variety in the future. I suspect that MAY limit future sales of CAMM-ER which was intended to be the mainstay for medium range SAMS for PN. If such a certification isnt given, i could see Jinnah (and possibly by extention Babur in the future) switch to MDAS/MILDAS VLS and use the Hisar-RF or Siper B1 SAMS if they become quadpacked as expected.

As for the reported second batch 3600T JCF reportedly based on AS3600 design, from my understanding, its actually better than what you speculate i suspect. AS3600 actually has 64 VLS cells (2 32 cell launchers) not the 32 cells you stated. Again, i dont think Sylver nor Mk41 will see service on PN and future VLS will almost certainly be MLDAS. I could. See 32 SIPER b1/b2 in the mid ship launchers and 16 cells in fron used for quadpacked medium range missiles (Hisar-RF or CAMM-ER) for 64 medium range and 32 medium/long range SAMS. While the remaining 16 cells could be used for a mix of rocket assisted Torpedos (ASROC) or LACM (depending on mission), while still allowing for 6 P282 or Harbah AShM. It will likely have a Gokdeniz CIWS in the rear and a 12 cell Goksur or 21 cell levent PDMS behind the front VLS based on the model. THIS is the ship Jinnah should. Have been from the start. I don't see China giving turkiey the codes for Hq-10 integration, nor do i see a need for HQ-10 when Bozdogan (Goksur) is likely superior. In fact i highly doubt any Chinese weapons will make there way to Jinnah at all.

 

[Tank131]

Bro, I did not include any date; I only discussed the weapons/construction pattern/layout above & its not my assumptions but based on builders' analysis. I also always reiterate the JCF project completion by 2032/33.

Furthermore, the development phase, layouts, weaponry, and systems have already been decided upon; as a result, the date stated makes sense because building has now initiated.

I think 2032/33nfor the first 2 JCF is logical. Each Babur is likely to take 48 months from being down, launched, commissioned, then have trials and load outs. So hopefully baburs will be wrapped up in another 16-18 months with Tariq to be done and ready to start service. Another year or so to retool as needed and another 6 months or so to 1 year for steel cutting for first 2, with the ships to be laid down months later. Another 4 years for construction, launch, commission, trials and layouts, based on averages for. Babur class. So another 8 year puts us right in that window with some timenas. A cushion. No, if JCF is also being constructed in Istanbul the possibily all 4 of the first batch in this time frame.