KF21 opportunity as Indoneasia cuts fundkng

[Indos]

A year ago. Indonesia did not participate in the development. They didn’t even pay all the development costs~And yet they wanted TOT from the development & more.

What a year ago ? Indonesian engineer come back since August 2021 and the design phase is completed in September 2019. Indonesian engineers keep in SK until 2020 March and during 2020, Indonesian Aerospace still do its work package for both design of dual seat variants and several metal component profuction for all prototypes

 

[Indos]

The cost payment is done gradually until 2026. Indonesia started the payment again since 2022 November, 2023 January, and 2024 April.

 

[KingQamaR]

LCA is about 8 years late , not 40 years

It helped in developing a aerospace industry in India that can design ,test and produce 4th gen aircraft and it will beef up the much needed squadron strength
And we will continue to build up on it
Mk1A is on the horizon with a large number of orders about 73+97 !!!
And MK2 is in prototyping stage ,which will also attract large number of orders

Yes its is late but if we need to keep up with our own aerospace projects

no point in making another 3rd/ 4th gen tejas Mk-2 fighter this day and age. By the time that thing enters service it will already be outclassed.

 

[Indos]

Without Indonesia, you will not likely see current C109 design KF21 with dual engine and the possibility to become true 5 and even 6th gen fighter

You guys dont know even until 2015 South Korea want to use Korean Aerospace KFX- E design with single engine, it is miracle they then get confidence to use C103 as base design as during 2013-2015 huge debate going on with SK dont have confidence to develop more complex C103 design developed by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace.

 

[panzerfaust 3]

no point in making another 3rd/ 4th gen tejas Mk-2 fighter this day and age. By the time that thing enters service it will already be outclassed.

Maybe you are right but our neighbours will keep flying 4th and 4.5 gen fighters and that too in large numbers

Maybe the era of 4.5 gen is still not over yet
At least from Indian perspective

However we need 5th gen fighters in numbers that's pretty obvious

 

[Indos]

Without Indonesia, you will not likely see current C109 design KF21 with dual engine and the possibility to become true 5 and even 6th gen fighter

You guys dont know even until 2015 South Korea want to use Korean Aerospace KFX- E design with single engine, it is miracle they then get confidence to use C103 as base design as during 2013-2015 huge debate going on with SK dont have confidence to develop more complex C103 design developed by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace.

One reason C103 become base design is the possibility Indonesia will walk out of the program if KFX-E is the one that will become KF21 base design with Lockeed Martin support.

Indonesia started its own jet fighter program during 2013-2015 with C103 as based design if SK end up chose KFX-E as KF21 based design

 

[harpy1]

Lol
It's not that bad guys
But I do agree India. Air force is stuck
Massive obselete fleet 600 plus fighters

It absolutely doesn't. While the LCA us only now being seriously inducted, the older jf-17s are now being considered for replacement.

You have no choice the first 120 thunders are compromised from day one
No composites meant weak airframe and already you have cracks in airframes
Then only single axis fbw meant handling was inferior to most modern jets

You have rectified these issues in block three but only ordered thirty air frames

If you are looking to scrap 120 block one and two after decade of service that's saying it all

Generally you keep your fighters fir three or fourv decades be it mirages or F16

I always knew the thunder would be found out soon

 

[harpy1]

Coming back to my thread
I have to agree lca is too late too little
Amca will take forever we should just continue at snails place

But I think rather than buy Rafale F5 at 140milluon each we could look.at k21 at half the price and buy whopping 200

 

[Indos]

One reason C103 become base design is the possibility Indonesia will walk out of the program if KFX-E is the one that will become KF21 base design with Lockeed Martin support.

Indonesia started its own jet fighter program during 2013-2015 with C103 as based design if SK end up chose KFX-E as KF21 based design

Here the example of internal research during 2013-2015. Just check Indonesian language and design look like C103 design

 

[KingQamaR]

What a year ago ? Indonesian engineer come back since August 2021 and the design phase is completed in September 2019. Indonesian engineers keep in SK until 2020 March and during 2020, Indonesian Aerospace still do its work package for both design of dual seat variants and several metal component profuction for all prototypes

Indonesia is an investor, not a developer, and tried to change terms of the contract after the fact.

 

[Indos]

Indonesia is an investor, not a developer, and tried to change terms of the contract after the fact.

Why you are so salty mate ? You cannot change the fact with just your comment

Program KFX/IFX Dilanjutkan, Pemerintah Diminta Segera Memilih Desain

Angkasa Online - Majalah Aviasi dan Militer

web.archive.org

11:49 October 07, 2019

"Despite such a delay in payment, the Indonesian side has continued to send its researchers to South Korea to take part in the development process," Rep. Kim Joong-ro of the minor opposition Bareunmirae Party said during a parliamentary audit into the administration, voicing concern about technology leaks.


As of July, 114 Indonesian engineers were sent to South Korea to work with Korea Aerospace Industries Co. (KAI), the country's sole aircraft manufacturer, to design and make a prototype of the fighter, according to a DAPA official.


Last month, DAPA confirmed that the design for the combat jet met all military requirements, allowing the project to go on to the next phase of constructing a prototype.

Indonesia delays payment for S. Korea's fighter development project | Yonhap News Agency

SEOUL, Oct. 7 (Yonhap) -- Indonesia is in arrears on its payment obligations for a joint p...

en.yna.co.kr

 

[Indos]

Without Indonesia, you will not likely see current C109 design KF21 with dual engine and the possibility to become true 5 and even 6th gen fighter

You guys dont know even until 2015 South Korea want to use Korean Aerospace KFX- E design with single engine, it is miracle they then get confidence to use C103 as base design as during 2013-2015 huge debate going on with SK dont have confidence to develop more complex C103 design developed by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace.

Design of long-delayed KF-X still in debate

A conceptual model of the single-engine C501

By Kang Seung-woo (The Korea Times)

After a decade-long delay, Korea's indigenous fighter program is about to officially hit the road with bidding by partner firms scheduled for next month.

However, which design concept to go with — a single- or twin-engine aircraft — is emerging as the biggest sticking point in the program, codenamed KF-X.

Currently, the state-run Agency for Defense Development (ADD), siding with the Air Force, claims the nation's future fighter should be a two-engine, clean-sheet aircraft, proposing a design labeled C103.

The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), on the other hand, has promoted a single-engine version of an aircraft, named C501, to be derived from the Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) FA-50 light attack fighter, saying the plane is cheaper and easier to develop and build than the ADD preference.

The KF-X, aimed at manufacturing "F-16+ class" fighter jets with the help of global defense contractors to fill a fighter gap envisioned the next decade, has been delayed due to budget constraints and questions over its feasibility.

The program, initiated by the late former President Kim Dae-jung in March 2001, had its basic strategy resolved in April 2010 and the ADD conducted a final study on the feasibility of the development program between 2011 and 2012. The Air Force plans to secure 120 new jets to replace its aging fleet of F-4s and F-5s under the fighter project.

In January, 20 billion won ($18.7 million) from the defense budget for 2014 was appropriated for deciding on its design and engine, and DAPA said it would begin accepting bids from manufacturers to participate in the indigenous program in April.

A conceptual model of the twin-engine C103

The Korean Air Force believes that more than anything else, a twin-engine aircraft has better combat performance as well as better safety.

"Twin-engine fighters are more expensive, but they can carry heavier payloads over longer distances," said Greg Waldron, Asia managing editor of FlightGlobal, an aviation and aerospace industry website.

"In addition, a twin-engine fighter provides a larger margin of safety in that if the pilot loses one engine, he can usually make it back to base with the remaining one."

The Air Force also prefers the twin-engine version for possible future upgrades.

"The C103 is a Eurofighter-like 4.5th-generation plane that can easily be upgraded to a fifth-generation fighter, while the C501 is a fourth-generation one," said a local aviation analyst on condition of anonymity.

The ADD has reserved space for a conformable weapons bay in its C103 design, which would give it the makings of a low-observable fighter.

The analyst said that if Korea opts for the twin-engine aircraft in the KF-X, the combat plane will eventually be able to replace the Air Force's F-16s and F-15s in the future.

"Otherwise, the KF-X will only end up as replacement for F-4s and F-5s," he said.

Thus far, the Korean Air Force has only used the American airplanes, so it has been troubled by U.S. interference in international sales and upgrades.

The Air Force says the clean-sheet, brand-new aircraft will be free from that hindrance. The KAI FA-50 is based on the T-50 supersonic trainer, co-developed with Lockheed Martin.

"The biggest advantage is that Korea will be able to export it without an export license (from the United States)," said Yang Uk, a senior research fellow at the Korea Defense and Security Forum.

"The aircraft will help the Air Force save operational and maintenance costs, as well."

In addition, the Air Force says that the development of F-16-class fighters will be meaningless because the KF-X planes will enter service from 2023, with neighboring countries such as China and Japan featuring advanced stealth jets — J-20s and F-35s, respectively.

"In terms of military strategy and military buildup, considering the operational environment of the 2030s to 2050s, the Air Force believes that a twin-engine fighter is a better choice," said an Air Force officer.

"However, it is the defense ministry's task force who calls the shots and we will follow the decision."

According to KAI, the C501 will be built based on the FA-50, although it will be larger, but Yang said that the up-sizing plan is unfeasible.

"If the C501 is built based on FA-50, KAI should redesign the plane's aerodynamics, which will pose a big financial burden," he said.

"If so, there will not be much difference between the C501 and C103 in terms of cost and development time."

However, according to the Korea Institute of Science and Technology Evaluation and Planning (KISTEP) in November, the single-engine design will cost 6.4 trillion won for development, compared with 8.6 trillion won for the twin-engine aircraft. In addition, the single-engine plane's operational and maintenance costs were evaluated at about 1 trillion won cheaper, along with earlier deployment — 10.5 years for the twin-engine model and 8.5 years for the single version.

"KAI is a listed company, so they should consider seeking a profit from the KF-X," said the aviation analyst.

Richard Aboulafia, vice president of the Virginia-based Teal Group, believes that there is definitely a market for a new medium weight affordable fighter design in the coming decades. Lockheed Martin is expected to close its near-ubiquitous F-16 production line in 2015.

"The KF-X should follow previous successful medium fighters like the F-16 and Dassault Mirage series," he said.

Aboulafia also said that a decision to make the KF-X a twin-engine design would be very damaging to export prospects.

"Two large combat engines would make the KF-X too large and expensive for most of the export fighter market," he said.

"On the flip side, if two small civilian engines are adapted for combat use, that would make the KF-X an underperforming and inadequate plane, much like Taiwan's Ching Kuo."

In terms of combat performance, the number of engine is not a conclusive factor.

"The engine is a crucial part of a combat aircraft, but it is merely one aspect of a system of systems. Employed properly, both single and twin-engine fighters can be highly effective in combat." Waldron said.

James Hardy, Asia-Pacific editor of IHS Jane's Defense Weekly, calls the Air Force's preference for a twin-engine aircraft "ironic" given that it turned down twin-engine F-15 in favor of the single-engine F-35 in the F-X III competition last year.

"Single engine aircraft are no longer seen as inferior for most missions — thus the F-35 is single-engine, as are the F-16 and Saab Gripen," he said.

Yang said that there is no clear definition for the KF-X and that has led to ceaseless debates.

"If an aircraft from the KF-X achieves stealth fighter status, it is a high-class fighter jet now, but it will be a medium fighter in 2025-26. There is no clear standard for a medium-class aircraft," he said.

"I believe that KAI will be able to manufacture the high-class plane, should it get more funds. If the government really wants to see economic effects from the KF-X, it should be a national project."

DAPA wants a participant to optionally pay 20 percent of the KF-X development cost, which will prevent KAI from developing a twin-engine aircraft that requires more technical effort. In addition, the arms procurement agency will require compensation for any delay in deployment, the unidentified analyst said.

"If a decision to go ahead with a twin-engine design is made, the government should ease the company's financial burden," he said.

Design of long-delayed KF-X still in debate

After a decade-long delay, Korea's indigenous fighter program is about to officially hit the road with bidding by partner firms scheduled for next month.

www.koreatimes.co.kr

 

[KingQamaR]

Why you are so salty mate ? You cannot change the fact with just your comment

Program KFX/IFX Dilanjutkan, Pemerintah Diminta Segera Memilih Desain

Angkasa Online - Majalah Aviasi dan Militer

web.archive.org

11:49 October 07, 2019

"Despite such a delay in payment, the Indonesian side has continued to send its researchers to South Korea to take part in the development process," Rep. Kim Joong-ro of the minor opposition Bareunmirae Party said during a parliamentary audit into the administration, voicing concern about technology leaks.


As of July, 114 Indonesian engineers were sent to South Korea to work with Korea Aerospace Industries Co. (KAI), the country's sole aircraft manufacturer, to design and make a prototype of the fighter, according to a DAPA official.


Last month, DAPA confirmed that the design for the combat jet met all military requirements, allowing the project to go on to the next phase of constructing a prototype.

Indonesia delays payment for S. Korea's fighter development project | Yonhap News Agency

SEOUL, Oct. 7 (Yonhap) -- Indonesia is in arrears on its payment obligations for a joint p...

en.yna.co.kr

Wish our Indonesia's brothers all the best no personal issues from our end.

There was a reason why Indonesia delays . According to SK that Indonesia cannot keep its promises. If a government of a country continuously breaks their promises on a financial contract….now it looks like all resolved i was only giving the back story of two countries fall out that is all.

 

[Indos]

Wish our Indonesia's brothers all the best no personal issues from our end.

There was a reason why Indonesia delays . According to SK that Indonesia cannot keep its promises. If a government of a country continuously breaks their promises on a financial contract….now it looks like all resolved i was only giving the back story of two countries fall out that is all.

The payment issue started after SK and USA restricted Indonesia engineers involvement in EMD phase ( 2016-2026).

As part of the deal, all technologies development will have Indonesian participation. The lead Engineers should be equal between SK and Indonesia. For example in aerodinamics there will be both SK and Indonesia lead engineers, as well as in other areas like configuration, combat system, etc

The reality is that during EMD phase Indonesia is only be given participation of 1/3 from the development, so this is why there come up Indonesia team asking the cost share to be reduced into 1/3 from initial cost.

For the Indonesian engineering team, what they are seeking is the development participation, not the manufacturing one since Indonesia needs to develop its IFX independently with continous independent upgrade. Manufacturing is not seen as something that they see as valuable TOT. So Indonesian Aerospace aim is to improve its ability to develop a fighter.

Despite so the deal is not yet reached, I speculate in the end Indonesia cost share will only be slashed into half since Indonesian Aerospace still want to maintain its portion of KF21 supply chain (aerostructure)

 

[Indos]

The payment issue started after SK and USA restricted Indonesia engineers involvement in EMD phase ( 2016-2026).

As part of the deal, all technologies development will have Indonesian participation. The lead Engineers should be equal between SK and Indonesia. For example in aerodinamics there will be both SK and Indonesia lead engineers, as well as in other areas like configuration, combat system, etc

The reality is that during EMD phase Indonesia is only be given participation of 1/3 from the development, so this is why there come up Indonesia team asking the cost share to be reduced into 1/3 from initial cost.

For the Indonesian engineering team, what they are seeking is the development participation, not the manufacturing one since Indonesia needs to develop its IFX independently with continous independent upgrade. Manufacturing is not seen as something that they see as valuable TOT. So Indonesian Aerospace aim is to improve its ability to develop a fighter.

Despite so the deal is not yet reached, I speculate in the end Indonesia cost share will only be slashed into half since Indonesian Aerospace still want to maintain its portion of KF21 supply chain (aerostructure)

So this is why Indonesian team want to cut the cost since they know they dont see manufacturing KF21 as some thing as valuable as the development phase.

SK said to the media that they will reduce TOT to Indonesia with Indonesia aim to reduce the cost share. From the Indonesian engineering team point of view they really only see devopment participation as the real value and dont seem to see the manufacturing side as very valuable that may come from the point of view that they think they can still manufacture KF21 with the reduce TOT from SK.

And as development of fighter is seen as something crucial from Indonesian team, so this is why DAPA South Korea Director told to the Korean press recently that Indonesia will likely get 5th KF21 prototype despite the reduced cost. Why ? Because KF21 5th prototype for Indonesian Aerospace is intended for development purposes. Development capability is seen as something that become Indonesia main purpose in joining the program since 2010.