'Kicked him to the curb': How Elon Musk forced Vivek Ramaswamy out of DOGE

[Distant_Observer]

India's corporate sector is HUGE. The ones you saw in Davos is just service industry.


Zoho is a billion dollar outfit. I doubt they have issues in getting money at all.
And then there is Reliance and Adani. Both have massive amount of money and diversified industries.

And others are a darling of Indian stock market. So yeah, if they want they can do it.

30-100 million or so needed is a good sum of capital but well within reach of all of these folks.

The question is more on the lines is why invest money in pre-training if you can get most of the value by distilling and fine tuning.

If India had a smaller population, say 400 million max, it would have become like Turkey.

1.4 billion is a lot of people. Should have managed population in the 70s.

 

[AjayGhatak]

If India had a smaller population, say 400 million max, it would have become like Turkey.

1.4 billion is a lot of people. Should have managed population in the 70s.

I am not sure how is that related to my post.

 

[r3alist]

And others are a darling of Indian stock market. So yeah, if they want they can do it.

30-100 million or so needed is a good sum of capital but well within reach of all of these folks.

But they clearly do want it, who doesn't? so all in all it follows it should be done

 

[AjayGhatak]

But they clearly do want it, who doesn't? so all in all it follows it should be done

I am yet to see why. I mean how many companies develop their own compilers?

I can bet even in China they would be using llvm for compiler backend instead of making one from scratch.

Just because its flashy does not mean you should do it.

 

[Developereo]

If all Indians have 6 months experience, what happened to those that were there 2 or 3 years ago.

The internal audits show fraud rates approaching 50 per cent,

Immigration audits reveal large-scale Indian fraud of visa system

Thousands of Indian students, skilled workers and 457 visa holders have been admitted to Australia on dodgy travel and work documents. Briefings prepared by the Immigration Department and obtained by the ABC's Fact Checking Unit under Freedom of Information show out-of-control fraud of the visa...

www.abc.net.au

In a previous project, we hired 5 Indian Java developers. One of them was really good. The others had 0%,20%,20%,50% of the competence they claimed and were eventually fired.

In another project, we had two Indian women who literally didn't know what is a procedure, a function, a parameter. They got hired because their husbands worked in the company.

You only broached the topic. All of this "Culture vulture" talk is BS. Wind the clock 40-50 years back and many east asian were considered equally backwards, even culturally.

Work culture is everything. It can motivate mediocre people to reach higher levels or it can demoralize smart people to just go throughthe motions.

You clearly haven't got the faintest clue about the importance of work culture.

China and Japan got where they are by adopting capitalism in various forms. Nothing less nothing more. Both Pakistan and India have been dominated by forces that hate capitalism.

Wrong again. Capitalism is the system that has the least tolerance for inefficiency and nepotism. The reason the West has dominated recently, why East Asian countries thrived and other regions struggled has everything to do with work culture.

Sure as hell you have not even run a team. Or you were involved in mundane parts of the "tech" industry. The ones that got mostly outsourced and then automated in last 10-15 years. There was a time when running an email server was a job. It first got outsourced and then replaced by hosted services.

I don't like managing people so we let managers do all that, but I have been involved in hiring both tech and management people. I have developed an excellent bullsh!t detector on the applicants.

In all my work I have seen managers and leadership struggling very badly to hire and retain workers.

Then you don't understand the dynamics at all. As I explained, there is a small percent of roles which require specialist skills. The need for retention is because the workers are valued for their domain knowledge or knowledge of that particular business. The technical skills are a secondary factor when it comes to retention.

We have hired people who did not possess the exact technical skills but had good domain knowledge because we believe a smart person can pick up the technical skills easily enough.

I guess there is a good logic to it, Indians fit the requirements well enough, for the decision making class

The top decision makers are not involved in day to day hiring. If you will read through the thread, I already explained two things.

Firstly, most big companies have a lot of fat and can carry a lot of deadweight. Their calculations already account for some amount of project delays and failures, as long as some projects succeed.

Secondly, the Western tech machine is built upon decades of ingenuity (including immigrants) and Western cultural traits. This success has a lot of inertia and Indians are riding that wave so far, but the bad cultural traits that have doomed India so far are now seeping into Western companies. The results take time to manifest and it will all depend to what extent Indian culture overtakes Western culture in these companies, but the Piper always gets his payment.

 

[r3alist]

The top decision makers are not involved in day to day hiring. If you will read through the thread, I already explained two things.

I should clarify what is meant by top decision makers

Everything you said is absolutely right downstream

But the very very top decision makers are not morons that they didn't know one ethnic group is dominating the entire industry workerbee level from decades, I am talking macro level for industry with geopolitics

Who would expose that concentration risk on tech ? After all everyone calls out the Chinese threat


They know all about who they are getting and it's because they are not top tier smart plus what you said above they fit the bill, they won't rock the boat, opportunism and cultural shifts are tolerated as long as it doesn't go too far

I don't understand how it will be competitive against China going forward

 

[AjayGhatak]

Then you don't understand the dynamics at all. As I explained, there is a small percent of roles which require specialist skills. The need for retention is because the workers are valued for their domain knowledge or knowledge of that particular business. The technical skills are a secondary factor when it comes to retention.

We have hired people who did not possess the exact technical skills but had good domain knowledge because we believe a smart person can pick up the technical skills easily enough.

From this it is clear that we are NOT talking about the same thing.

When I say tech, I mean likes of Windows, AWS, GCP, PyTorch, Elastic Search or Solr and so on. On these, there is no replacement of technical skills. Try making next S3 and if your storage can not scale or goes inconsistant on a cluster split, you are dead in water. No matter how much "business domain" you know.

I should have been clear since the beginning that I exclude enterprise software, bespoke business solutions from this category and put them in IT and Business software. These folks need the business domain knowledge to build bespoke solutions because it makes sense there.

However, it should be clear that what you are calling a "tech" industry is essentially a support function of a larger business. Like a bank or a mining or an insurance company.

As far as I know, atleast in Australia there are not many "tech" companies but a lot of Business / Enterprise software companies. No wonder salaries in software development in Australia are pretty low compared to that in silicon valley.

I guess rest of the discussion is irrelevant because we are not even talking about the same stuff. Your tech is business solutioning, the tech I mention is foundational. So yes, there can be no reconciliation in that.

 

[AjayGhatak]

I should clarify what is meant by top decision makers

Everything you said is absolutely right downstream

But the very very top decision makers are not morons that they didn't know one ethnic group is dominating the entire industry workerbee level from decades, I am talking macro level for industry with geopolitics

Who would expose that concentration risk on tech ? After all everyone calls out the Chinese threat


They know all about who they are getting and it's because they are not top tier smart plus what you said above they fit the bill, they won't rock the boat, opportunism and cultural shifts are tolerated as long as it doesn't go too far

I don't understand how it will be competitive against China going forward

Yeah right!

Do yourself a favour and start a business yourself in core technology, scale it and then give all these sage advices.

Somehow people who have not done those things have the strongest and most confident opinion about running businesses than owners of the most successful enterprises on the planet.

Hire all the displaced whites and build a business that beats the existing ones.

Its same with subtards crying over H1B. None of them are good enough to be hired even if there were zero non-whites around. Thats the reason they crib on twitter.

 

[Developereo]

When I say tech, I mean likes of Windows, AWS, GCP, PyTorch, Elastic Search or Solr and so on. On these, there is no replacement of technical skills

LOL, these are NOT genius level skills. I have used most of these and I picked them up in no time. We have hired people who did not have these skills but they understood the concept of docker, cloud computing, lambda functions, etc. etc. etc. and they picked up the specifics of a particular platform in no time.

If you work in tech, then you know the 'secret' that any smart person will pick up new tech quickly enough. What we always look for is smart people with a track record of hitting the ground running. When we interview, we ask about core concepts, not the specific syntax for a particular platform.

As far as I know, atleast in Australia there are not many "tech" companies but a lot of Business / Enterprise software companies

Amazon and Google have a major development center in Australia, probably even Microsoft There are plenty of pure 'tech' jobs in Australia.

. No wonder salaries in software development in Australia are pretty low compared to that in silicon valley.

Salaries are based on both the skill and the cost of living. Google has a different pay scale for the exact same job but depending on where the job will be performed. This is true even within the US: the exact same job will pay differently in San Francisco compared to Kansas City.

 

[AjayGhatak]

LOL, these are NOT genius level skills. I have used most of these and I picked them up in no time.

You are not getting it. I am not talking about "using" them. I am talking about making them in the first place.

I will love to know how you managed to design a distributed object storage like S3 that allows arbitrary sized object on a cluster.

The folks who do that kind of things are valued a lot. And silicon valley companies do that a lot. Thats why it is VERY hard to find talent there. All Indians surviving and thriving in that kind of industry are top tier talent.

This is exactly why I laugh at you when you crib about "Indian nepotism". That can not survive in silicon valley. People who are displaced will be scooped up quickly.

We have hired people who did not have these skills but they understood the concept of docker, cloud computing, lambda functions, etc. etc. etc. and they picked up the specifics of a particular platform in no time.

Again, its not about USING them in building applications. Its about building these services from the scratch.

Thats what makes Silicon Valley what it is.

Amazon and Google have a major development center in Australia, probably even Microsoft There are plenty of pure 'tech' jobs in Australia.

Amazon has mostly "professional services" in Australia : meaning enterprise architects who work with pre-sales to develop solutions around Amazon's offerings for businesses and government clients in Australia.

Very little AWS services are owned by the team operating out of Sydney or Brisbane or Melbourne.

There is an Amazon Fresh team that operates out of Brisbane office but thats the extent of it.

Salaries are based on both the skill and the cost of living. Google has a different pay scale for the exact same job but depending on where the job will be performed. This is true even within the US: the exact same job will pay differently in San Francisco compared to Kansas City.

Sydney Australia and Austin TX are very comparable in cost of living, with Austin being a shade cheaper to live in.
(https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Australia&city1=Austin,+TX&city2=Sydney).

Amazon SDE III Software Engineer Salary in Greater Austin Area | $290K-$396K+ | Levels.fyi

The median total compensation package for a SDE III at Amazon in Greater Austin Area is $342,726. View more Software Engineer salary ranges with breakdowns by base, stock, and bonus amounts.

www.levels.fyi

Amazon pays a SDE 3 about : AUD 600K in Austin Texas.
while

Amazon SDE III Software Engineer Salary in Greater Sydney | A$241K-A$338K+ | Levels.fyi

The median total compensation package for a SDE III at Amazon in Greater Sydney is A$287,794. View more Software Engineer salary ranges with breakdowns by base, stock, and bonus amounts.

www.levels.fyi

In sydney it pays merely AUD 280K. Less than half.

Its all about competition. In USA there are many many many great tech companies (not merely IT departments of some bank or insurance company) so real talent demands real compensation there.

Australia is a backwater with no real tech company apart from perhaps Atlassian. And it shows.

 

[Developereo]

You are not getting it. I am not talking about "using" them. I am talking about making them in the first place.

LOL, I have worked on system software including distributed and parallel processing Unix kernel. That is about as intense as it gets. We did not have a single Indian engineer in our team, not one! That is why I laugh at your claims that Indian geniuses are at the core of American ingenuity.

American tech is built upon American ingenuity, which included a handful of Indians in some companies, but the tidal wave of H1-B Indians are just riding the wave of inertia.

I will love to know how you managed to design a distributed object storage like S3 that allows arbitrary sized object on a cluster.

Again, I have forgotten more about designing distributed systems than you will ever know. By your own admission, you were a tester and you clearly don't have the faintest clue about software architecture, let alone hardware design. We built distributed, parallel processing, system level products, including for the DoD. When creating such products, we needed to understand both software and hardware at the deepest level. We had several PhDs in our team and, once again, not a single Indian. Not one! Not one!

America has managed to design such systems for literally decades and has been doing just fine before Indians showed up.

LOL, what a farcical joke to claim that America owes its technical prowess to Indians.

The folks who do that kind of things are valued a lot. And silicon valley companies do that a lot. Thats why it is VERY hard to find talent there. All Indians surviving and thriving in that kind of industry are top tier talent.

No, they don't.

Even in Silicon Valley, these kinds of companies, these kinds of jobs and such Indians are the minuscule tip of the iceberg. The vast majority of tech jobs and these 'highly skilled' H1-B Indians are ordinary coding jobs.

Sell that nonsense to someone who hasn't worked in tech.

This is exactly why I laugh at you when you crib about "Indian nepotism". That can not survive in silicon valley. People who are displaced will be scooped up quickly.

LOL, I used to work in Silicon Valley for some of the top tech companies. You are talking as if you are the only one who worked in Silicon Valley and that everyone will believe whatever you say. Even in the top tech companies, including (what used to be) Sun and Oracle, there is a lot of deadwood.

Amazon has mostly "professional services" in Australia : meaning enterprise architects who work with pre-sales to develop solutions around Amazon's offerings for businesses and government clients in Australia.

I know people who used to work for Amazon and Google in Australia and they were involved in product design and architecture. Maybe they were working remotely with an American team, I don't know.

In sydney it pays merely AUD 280K. Less than half
Its all about competition.

Economics 101: salaries are based on local market conditions in the broader economic context. If salaries in Australia are generally lower for all types of work, they would be lower for tech also. A Wall Street broker probably makes a ton more than a similar person in Sydney, so what? Why would Amazon pay more when they don't need to?

In USA there are many many many great tech companies (not merely IT departments of some bank or insurance company) so real talent demands real compensation there.

We already covered that nonsense earlier in this post.

Australia is a backwater with no real tech company apart from perhaps Atlassian. And it shows.

LOL, Australia is punching well above its weight. How many world class tech products have come out of India, the land of geniuses?

 

[onlinpunit]

LOL, I have worked on system software including distributed and parallel processing Unix kernel. That is about as intense as it gets. We did not have a single Indian engineer in our team, not one! That is why I laugh at your claims that Indian geniuses are at the core of American ingenuity.

American tech is built upon American ingenuity, which included a handful of Indians in some companies, but the tidal wave of H1-B Indians are just riding the wave of inertia.



Again, I have forgotten more about designing distributed systems than you will ever know. By your own admission, you were a tester and you clearly don't have the faintest clue about software architecture, let alone hardware design. We built distributed, parallel processing, system level products, including for the DoD. When creating such products, we needed to understand both software and hardware at the deepest level. We had several PhDs in our team and, once again, not a single Indian. Not one! Not one!

America has managed to design such systems for literally decades and has been doing just fine before Indians showed up.

LOL, what a farcical joke to claim that America owes its technical prowess to Indians.



No, they don't.

Even in Silicon Valley, these kinds of companies, these kinds of jobs and such Indians are the minuscule tip of the iceberg. The vast majority of tech jobs and these 'highly skilled' H1-B Indians are ordinary coding jobs.

Sell that nonsense to someone who hasn't worked in tech.



LOL, I used to work in Silicon Valley for some of the top tech companies. You are talking as if you are the only one who worked in Silicon Valley and that everyone will believe whatever you say. Even in the top tech companies, including (what used to be) Sun and Oracle, there is a lot of deadwood.



I know people who used to work for Amazon and Google in Australia and they were involved in product design and architecture. Maybe they were working remotely with an American team, I don't know.



Economics 101: salaries are based on local market conditions in the broader economic context. If salaries in Australia are generally lower for all types of work, they would be lower for tech also. A Wall Street broker probably makes a ton more than a similar person in Sydney, so what? Why would Amazon pay more when they don't need to?



We already covered that nonsense earlier in this post.



LOL, Australia is punching well above its weight. How many world class tech products have come out of India, the land of geniuses?

Yes sir !! What ever ur are saying bad to be true ! So which demography you hire from ?

 

[AjayGhatak]

Again, I have forgotten more about designing distributed systems than you will ever know.

Indeed. You have forgotten enough of distributed systems that you are stuck in a backwater like Australia. More on this later. Or you really hate money.

I wonder which one is it?

Economics 101: salaries are based on local market conditions in the broader economic context. If salaries in Australia are generally lower for all types of work, they would be lower for tech also. A Wall Street broker probably makes a ton more than a similar person in Sydney, so what? Why would Amazon pay more when they don't need to?

FALSE!
Employers always pay the minimum salaries they could get away with. Unless of course you hate money and capital. In absence of competing demand wages stagnate and even contract. REAL economic 101. LOL!

LOL, Australia is punching well above its weight. How many world class tech products have come out of India, the land of geniuses?

Yup! So much punching!

Till date there is only ONE Australian software company of notice has been there, its called Atlassian. And that will not even hold a candle in silicon valley.
Thats all! No wonder Australians are paid so less. There is simply not enough demand for talent in Australia.

distributed and parallel processing Unix kernel

This gem. LOL!

You know just throwing random words does not make sense. LOL!
I am now 100% sure you are a fraud. No wonder you see nepotism everywhere. LOL!
"distributed and parallel processing Unix kernel" LOL! I will print it on a t-shirt or something.

FYI, you do not put things in "Kernel" of an OS that you can easily do in user-space. Distributed systems is one of those things. I highly doubt you even remember basics of operating system design too... As you admitted you have forgotten a lot. LOL!

 

[r3alist]

Yeah right!

Do yourself a favour and start a business yourself in core technology, scale it and then give all these sage advices.

Somehow people who have not done those things have the strongest and most confident opinion about running businesses than owners of the most successful enterprises on the planet.

Hire all the displaced whites and build a business that beats the existing ones.

Its same with subtards crying over H1B. None of them are good enough to be hired even if there were zero non-whites around. Thats the reason they crib on twitter.

There is no advice, I am just suggesting how things plainly look, you respond selectively to what you want anyway


And you do it very well

 

[r3alist]

LOL, Australia is punching well above its weight. How many world class tech products have come out of India, the land of geniuses?

India has announced it's intent to develop its own ai, I suppose that's the chance to showcase itself

India braces up for AI challenge, plans own LLM foundational model to rival ChatGPT, DeepSeek R1

Under the IndiaAI Mission, the government has also selected 18 application-level AI solutions for the first round of funding.

indianexpress.com

On the question of genius, India, china and development.... No one is looking at the point around AVERAGE IQ

It's a bit of a tricky subject, you can perhaps put variable emphasis but the difference is huge even as a directional indicator, between India and China, 106 Vs sub 80? Come on...

Therefore it follows china will have much more very smart people, India has the advantage of English however which is what helps in the West