Mohsin Naqvi signal administrative units or new provinces will be formed at all cost.

[HAIDER]

Tbh I was in favor of the merger of fata into kpk but now I think it was a mistake considering just how backwards fata was... We destroyed any potential KPK districts had for normal life and prosperity... It's now an endless cycle of violence... Moreover, provincial administration has not been up to par. A major blunder which is taking whole of KPK back.

Well, US also played vital part to this merger to control insurgency in Afghanistan, during NATO deployment. But Federal govt stop NFC award suppose to be given for FATA to KPK govt, since last 3 years.

 

[RealNapster]

Who elected this guy ? What qualifications does he have besides being the relative of Asim Munir to suggest such constitutional changes ? F Munir and his people.

An non-elected guy is challenging so-callled elected guys that he will make more provinces despite resistance from elected guys.

Why can he ? Because he knows how the elected ones were elected.

 

[F.O.X]

If only IK the Great had proposed this idea, it would have been declared the greatest administrative reform Pakistan, the world, hell, even the entire universe had ever witnessed. Anyone opposing it would instantly have been labelled a traitor and anti national.

Alas, the great saint is behind bars, so the cult must now oppose everything on principle.

 

[F.O.X]

Who elected this guy ? What qualifications does he have besides being the relative of Asim Munir to suggest such constitutional changes ? F Munir and his people.

while we are discussing who elected him , can you please tell me who elected the following in IK's tenure ?

Hafeez Sheikh
Abdul Razak Dawood
Ishrat Hussain
Zulfi Bukhari
Shahzad Akbar
Shahbaz Gill
Sania Nishtar
Moeed Yusuf
Zafar Mirza
Nadeem Babar
Tania Aidrus
Asim Saleem Bajwa
Faisal Sultan
Malik Amin Aslam?

just a few on top my head.

 

[F.O.X]

Establishment's new side show project to distract the masses from their failures.

When 28 provinces don't work, then we just create a new boogeyman

How tf did we even arrive at 28 provinces or whatever the distribution is now? Is it based on population divison, economic output, natural resources, tax income, geographic lines? It's just a whimsical map drawn up on ethnic lines again...no homework behind it which would actually improve governance.

Baki goron kay traditions rakhay hain, so this is a desi Radcliffe line.

You are asking how we arrived at 28 provinces as though a final constitutional map has already been approved and implemented. What exists right now is a proposal for debate. Population, geography, economic viability, revenue capacity and administrative accessibility should obviously determine the eventual boundaries. That is precisely what parliamentary discussion and expert review are for.

Pakistan’s present provinces are enormous, highly centralised and administratively inefficient. bringing government closer to the people is a legitimate idea, regardless of who proposes it. Rejecting it before the details have even been developed, simply by shouting “establishment,” is not analysis either.

and comparing internal administrative boundaries with the radcliffe Line is ridiculous. radcliffe partitioned a country, displaced millions and created an international border. new administrative units would remain inside the same federation.

But yes, why discuss governance when “establishment side show” can conveniently substitute for an entire argument?

 

[El Sidd]

while we are discussing who elected him , can you please tell me who elected the following in IK's tenure ?

Hafeez Sheikh
Abdul Razak Dawood
Ishrat Hussain
Zulfi Bukhari
Shahzad Akbar
Shahbaz Gill
Sania Nishtar
Moeed Yusuf
Zafar Mirza
Nadeem Babar
Tania Aidrus
Asim Saleem Bajwa
Faisal Sultan
Malik Amin Aslam?

just a few on top my head.

Their names appeared through mixture of interpretation of dreams, intestinal shape of a sacrificed black sheep and whispers of the oracle of pakpattan.

All are legitimate acceptable cultural requirements.

 

[SteppeWolff]

More than provinces, we need an empowered local bodies based governance system.

 

[Watandar]

An non-elected guy is challenging so-callled elected guys that he will make more provinces despite resistance from elected guys.

Why can he ? Because he knows how the elected ones were elected.

There was once a Musharraf who also pushed through poorly thought out changes to the Constitution and local government through his Lota League. Once he departed it was all rolled back. Munir and Naqvi , same deal.

Constitution, foreign policy, economics these are all weighty subjects far beyond the puny minds of Faujis and bureaucrats who are merely guided by careerism and self interest.

The most pertinent point, as raised in a different thread, is the Center has been starved of funds since the 18th amendment and has been scheming ever since to get them back. That's all this is about.

 

[Watandar]

Well, US also played vital part to this merger to control insurgency in Afghanistan during NATO deployment. But Federal govt stop NFC award suppose to be given for FATA to KPK govt, since last 3 years.

True, the US had been pushing the Fata/Kp merger for whatever reason for about a decade. The point about the Center promising to provide Fata funds to KP post merger but keeping them instead, is very important and I think key to the Opposition exposing this scheme for what is really is, another money and power grab by the Establishment.

 

[Jango]

You are asking how we arrived at 28 provinces as though a final constitutional map has already been approved and implemented. What exists right now is a proposal for debate. Population, geography, economic viability, revenue capacity and administrative accessibility should obviously determine the eventual boundaries. That is precisely what parliamentary discussion and expert review are for.

So which parliament is this parliamentary discussion exactly happening at? Or any other venuew other than Mohsin Naqvi's speecges?? Closed drawing rooms? And a sham bill will be passed by a sham assembly?

It's like DHA admin telling you that someone else is now owner of your house, and that guy then goes to make wholesale changes to your house.

Pakistan’s present provinces are enormous, highly centralised and administratively inefficient. bringing government closer to the people is a legitimate idea, regardless of who proposes it. Rejecting it before the details have even been developed, simply by shouting “establishment,” is not analysis either.

And creating more provinces is not going to resolve that issue. You're just ditributing the problem, not resolving it. No one is rejecting it because establishment. It's being rejected because it's another idea which you want the masses to blindly follow without any actualy thought process. IDK why you guys don't get it.

And even if someone does reject it because of establishment, why the heck not. Kal ko har kaam main fauji ko ghusa do gay and take orders from them?

and comparing internal administrative boundaries with the radcliffe Line is ridiculous. radcliffe partitioned a country, displaced millions and created an international border. new administrative units would remain inside the same federation.

Man...he point was whimsical boundary representations, not literal. -_-

But yes, why discuss governance when “establishment side show” can conveniently substitute for an entire argument?

Because there is no argument from your end. Where is the data based argument? Any analysis or homework done?

Agr koi aap kay favorite Asim bhai ko kuch kahay to aag bagola mat ho jaya karo bhai, un ko har baat wahi nhn hoti.

 

[Watandar]

while we are discussing who elected him , can you please tell me who elected the following in IK's tenure ?

Hafeez Sheikh
Abdul Razak Dawood
Ishrat Hussain
Zulfi Bukhari
Shahzad Akbar
Shahbaz Gill
Sania Nishtar
Moeed Yusuf
Zafar Mirza
Nadeem Babar
Tania Aidrus
Asim Saleem Bajwa
Faisal Sultan
Malik Amin Aslam?

just a few on top my head.

Are they all relatives of Imran Khan ? Were all of them GHQ spies in the Cabinet ? Were they demanding 28 provinces while in cahoots with GHQ ? What is the basis of your comparison with Naqvi ?

 

[Jango]

Ok- so if those with the greatest power are dumb in general and I don't disagree. Then Regardless of whatever system is the best and the most efficient and so on - whats the point if it never gets implemented. As in no change happens at all.

If those with the greatest power (generals) are dumb then why do we think that whatever system is best will never get implemented? Sirf fauji hi aql-e-qul hai mulk main?

And if no change happens, then why go through the whole exercise in the first place?

The current plan with the provinces is all about F-Akbar Marshall being able to dangle control over Punjab while putting it on Sindh and usual play one against the other... but in reality what usefulness has the ethnic grouping of provinces provided other than division in the first place? After all, the One unit schemes led to two countries - maybe try the opposite direction? Maybe that leads to one country finally??

Because you are lazy. Doing actual homework to draw administrative units and do some sociodemographic surveys and studies is a futile exercise, we'll just yolo boundaries and it's far easier to create them on ethnic grounds.

or maybe that leads to 5 countries and maybe that is fine.

Then for all these ideals of revolution - lets say (and laughably as if that would happen) the so called massed marches do happen on the 27th - what is the goal?
Freeing an already failed individual who basically let go of his best players to replace them with mostly sycophants and gandchurian candidates?

I spent a great dinner with another immigrant who kept going upon "Sar kaat do Faujion ke" and "Imam Khomeni" and "Bas Pathan ke haath pistol do aur lar jao" - "Jaise Quraysh ke saath kiya tha" as if the ignorant prick even read Islamic history to how Makkah was actually conquered....But as soon as I pointed out the reality of responses and divisions he would sombre reality checks - get offended - and then go back into "Bas 1% - khara ho jaye ye hatyaar daal dein gein". ...and "french revolution".

That is my point - people have plenty of forum and drawing room anger - of which 0.1 will actually translate it to street power - of which 0.005 will actually hold the line. Bhutto is the exception people keep laundering into some rule for Imran Khan without realizing that the system has adapted since then too. If anyone remembers, Bhutto came in Punjab and Sindh - the majority said something else and then you had 90k prisoners and people dying of heart attack shocks not realising how far the division had gone.. wahi ho raha hai aur saaray ka saaray usko aur charhaney mein lagay howe hain hafiz sb, nani plastic and CM kharary included.

Then Bhutto was brought down - part by fauj engineering and part by his own ego(that is common between him and IK.. so I guess there are paralells) on Nizam E mustafa and then that Frankenstein alliance was gone in a year because when those bearded qtiyas cannot even pray behind or even next to each other because of the color of their pagri.. you think they will unite for some civic change???

France had a economic crisis, no courts, a bourgeoisie with something to gain, and then a decade of terror and war before it became a usable state... everyone prepared for that after saying "iss dehshat gardi ke peechay wardi hai"?
Find out whats happened in Syria, Libya and Sudan...

The mullahs in Iran were already united, has funds from the streets, a unified identity lasting centuries unlike the 7 differrent people in Pakistan and its leader had LOST SUPPORT OF MOST OF THE OFFICER CADRE.

All everyone here has is imported ideas, a security state that has scenarios and files it has figured out work out eventually ok to keep the system running and anger at the sky. If the entire theory of change people here have is "Get the army out" then it is the ultimate Sheikh Chillee change management.


Unfortunately, I have yet to come across ANY satisfactory answer for all the "tabdeeli" musings other than freeing IK and 27th ko nikal aao . PTI wont bring change - on its own anyway and first peerni then faujis made sure of it.

قَالُوا۟ بَلْ نَتَّبِعُ مَآ أَلْفَيْنَا عَلَيْهِ ءَابَآءَنَآ ۗ أَوَلَوْ كَانَ ءَابَآؤُهُمْ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ شَيْـًۭٔا وَلَا يَهْتَدُونَ

Again, IDK why your whole post is premised with PTI. Did you see me mention PTI anywhere?

No one wants faujis to get culled, no one wants IK to get a pedestal seat at the PM house, no one wants us to turn to Syria or Libya.

You can't keep hiding your incompetencies and bad ideas behind Syria and Libya and dangle that sword of jinn ajaye ga over the people. And wanting the establishment to control itself and not implement every brain wave idea does not mean you want them to be disbanded and country handed over to the wolves.

No one is calling for a revolution, we at least don't have Saddam (yet).

 

[F.O.X]

Are they all relatives of Imran Khan ? Were all of them GHQ spies in the Cabinet ? Were they demanding 28 provinces while in cahoots with GHQ ? What is the basis of your comparison with Naqvi ?

Lol, not a single line is an answer to my question, but since we are on it, tell me how mohsin naqvi is relative of asim munir .

 

[F.O.X]

So which parliament is this parliamentary discussion exactly happening at? Or any other venuew other than Mohsin Naqvi's speecges?? Closed drawing rooms? And a sham bill will be passed by a sham assembly?

It's like DHA admin telling you that someone else is now owner of your house, and that guy then goes to make wholesale changes to your house.

And creating more provinces is not going to resolve that issue. You're just ditributing the problem, not resolving it. No one is rejecting it because establishment. It's being rejected because it's another idea which you want the masses to blindly follow without any actualy thought process. IDK why you guys don't get it.

And even if someone does reject it because of establishment, why the heck not. Kal ko har kaam main fauji ko ghusa do gay and take orders from them?

Man...he point was whimsical boundary representations, not literal. -_-

Because there is no argument from your end. Where is the data based argument? Any analysis or homework done?

Agr koi aap kay favorite Asim bhai ko kuch kahay to aag bagola mat ho jaya karo bhai, un ko har baat wahi nhn hoti.

You are proving my point with every reply. I never supported 28 provinces or any random map. I said smaller administrative units are worth discussing. But cultists heard something not coming from IK and immediately started screaming "establishment project."

First you demand parliamentary debate, then declare the parliament a sham before any bill even reaches it. You reject the proposal, the person proposing it and the constitutional forum which must decide it. So what exactly do you want, other than IK personally coming out of jail and announcing it?

Yes, proper homework is required . Population, geography, revenue, resources and administrative cost must all be considered. If they present a stupid map without this, reject it. But calling the whole concept useless before seeing any actual plan is not critical thinking, it is political worship.

And your DHA example is beyond stupid. Nobody is taking ownership of anyone’s province. Under Article 239, changing provincial boundaries requires two-thirds approval from Parliament and two thirds from the concerned provincial assembly . Naqvi cannot redraw Pakistan with a marker during a speech .

Creating more provinces alone will not magically fix governance, but smaller administrations with fiscal powers and strong local governments can improve it. This is basic administrative logic.

And stop dragging your "Asim bhai" into everything. I am discussing an idea, you are discussing personalities because apparently every subject in Pakistan must begin and end with your imprisoned messiah.

Even stupidity is supposed to have limits, but IK cultists seem determined to prove otherwise.

 

[Watandar]

Lol, not a single line is an answer to my question, but since we are on it, tell me how mohsin naqvi is relative of asim munir .

Any proposals from Illegitimate ruler Asim Munir and his wife's cousin Naqvi do not deserve any serious discussion. Fruit of the poisoned tree.

Hold a free and fair election first and then discuss questions like this in Parliament. GHQ or Aabpara are not the place for it.