Mohsin Naqvi signal administrative units or new provinces will be formed at all cost.

[imadul]

So PTI has also shown its true status quo khassi colors. They are opposing more provinces and referendum on the question of new provinces.
It is proven, khassi, parochial, retard, archaic, primate, feudal and fan club parties cannot do a fu----ng damn thing for real reforms.
It shall be a massive service of military does.

 

[iron shrapnel]

Well, US also played vital part to this merger to control insurgency in Afghanistan during NATO deployment. But Federal govt stop NFC award suppose to be given for FATA to KPK govt, since last 3 years.

Should have been made a separate province so that fund allocation would have been crystal clear...

Maybe they stopped funds for the past 3 years but rest of kp is looking more like FATA rather than vice versa since the merger..

Hence the grievance.

 

[Jango]

You are proving my point with every reply. I never supported 28 provinces or any random map. I said smaller administrative units are worth discussing. But cultists heard something not coming from IK and immediately started screaming "establishment project."

1- You wanna start throwing around cultists and IK yet again while I never mentioned him.
2- It's not about you my man. It's what about federal ministers and everyone else in power says.

Get that phobia out of your mind dude...the world doesn't revolve around IK or PTI.

First you demand parliamentary debate, then declare the parliament a sham before any bill even reaches it. You reject the proposal, the person proposing it and the constitutional forum which must decide it.

Bingo. You phrase the exact same thing as me, but then deduce the absolute worst conclusion from it. Now you understand the problem? If the forum for deciding these matters itself is tainted, then how do you expect everyone to blindly abide by whatever they decide and how do you ensure whatever is happening is for the best interest of the people? Especially since the track record is shit.

It's like going to a corrupt judge who takes money from the local thug, and then go ahead and entrusting him with your safety.

So what exactly do you want, other than IK personally coming out of jail and announcing it?

Where did I say that? Unlike you I do not see IK everywhere I look. It's understandable though, happens when you need to create a boogeyman for your failures.

Yes, proper homework is required . Population, geography, revenue, resources and administrative cost must all be considered. If they present a stupid map without this, reject it. But calling the whole concept useless before seeing any actual plan is not critical thinking,

So where is the plan? Where will it come? Who will see it? Who will draft it?

Or will we see it 20 minutes before it is presented in the assembly for voting? And the committee members will be given different drafts, or will they be given secret drafts? You do know all this has happened before, right?

What kind of stockholm syndrome are you in?

it is political worship.

Of who exactly? Who am I worshipping by bringing about a valid critique of something the current government/dictator proposed?

Stop trying to fit in IK and PTI and cultist stuff everywhere man, how many times do I tell you?

And your DHA example is beyond stupid. Nobody is taking ownership of anyone’s province. Under Article 239, changing provincial boundaries requires two-thirds approval from Parliament and two thirds from the concerned provincial assembly . Naqvi cannot redraw Pakistan with a marker during a speech .

Glad you brought this up. This was actually what your own tout Ahsan Bhoon got confused on too. So you wanna have a referendum or Article 239? Both are contradictory. Make up your mind.

Secondly, it is perfectly apt. You are taking ownership of Sindh, just look at what Mohsin Naqvi is saying.

But IDK why you are even getting into legal weeds, we all know the law can be changed on a whim here.

Creating more provinces alone will not magically fix governance, but smaller administrations with fiscal powers and strong local governments can improve it. This is basic administrative logic.

Why can't you implement stronger local governments as it is right now?

Why can't you give fiscal power right now?

Seems we are lacking in basic administrative logic since a while.

And stop dragging your "Asim bhai" into everything. I am discussing an idea, you are discussing personalities because apparently every subject in Pakistan must begin and end with your imprisoned messiah.

Who is running the country? Who proposed this idea? Who is pushing for it? Some Martians?

Even stupidity is supposed to have limits, but IK cultists seem determined to prove otherwise.

Azma Bukhari jaisi safayian aap day rahay ho...so I guess it'll be wise to look into a mirror. I haven't even mentioned IK or PTI. Would do you well to get some IK therapy...get him our of your system man...

 

[F.O.X]

Any proposals from Illegitimate ruler Asim Munir and his wife's cousin Naqvi do not deserve any serious discussion. Fruit of the poisoned tree.

Hold a free and fair election first and then discuss questions like this in Parliament. GHQ or Aabpara are not the place for it.

dude show me where Naqvi is his wife's cousin, show me the proof.

 

[F.O.X]

1- You wanna start throwing around cultists and IK yet again while I never mentioned him.
2- It's not about you my man. It's what about federal ministers and everyone else in power says.

Get that phobia out of your mind dude...the world doesn't revolve around IK or PTI.

Bingo. You phrase the exact same thing as me, but then deduce the absolute worst conclusion from it. Now you understand the problem? If the forum for deciding these matters itself is tainted, then how do you expect everyone to blindly abide by whatever they decide and how do you ensure whatever is happening is for the best interest of the people? Especially since the track record is shit.

It's like going to a corrupt judge who takes money from the local thug, and then go ahead and entrusting him with your safety.


Where did I say that? Unlike you I do not see IK everywhere I look. It's understandable though, happens when you need to create a boogeyman for your failures.

So where is the plan? Where will it come? Who will see it? Who will draft it?

Or will we see it 20 minutes before it is presented in the assembly for voting? And the committee members will be given different drafts, or will they be given secret drafts? You do know all this has happened before, right?

What kind of stockholm syndrome are you in?

Of who exactly? Who am I worshipping by bringing about a valid critique of something the current government/dictator proposed?

Stop trying to fit in IK and PTI and cultist stuff everywhere man, how many times do I tell you?

Glad you brought this up. This was actually what your own tout Ahsan Bhoon got confused on too. So you wanna have a referendum or Article 239? Both are contradictory. Make up your mind.

Secondly, it is perfectly apt. You are taking ownership of Sindh, just look at what Mohsin Naqvi is saying.

But IDK why you are even getting into legal weeds, we all know the law can be changed on a whim here.

Why can't you implement stronger local governments as it is right now?

Why can't you give fiscal power right now?

Seems we are lacking in basic administrative logic since a while.

Who is running the country? Who proposed this idea? Who is pushing for it? Some Martians?

Azma Bukhari jaisi safayian aap day rahay ho...so I guess it'll be wise to look into a mirror. I haven't even mentioned IK or PTI. Would do you well to get some IK therapy...get him our of your system man...

Fair enough, you personally did not mention IK. Now lets look at the “sense” in the rest of your argument.

You demand parliamentary debate, then declare Parliament a sham, You demand a plan , then reject it before one is even presented . You ask for public consent , then claim a referendum contradicts Article 239, when one establishes public opinion and the other completes the constitutional process . You ask why local governments cannot be empowered, as if local empowerment and smaller provinces are somehow mutually exclusive.

Then you compare changing administrative boundaries with somebody stealing your house. Brilliant constitutional analysis.

And after accusing me of seeing IK everywhere, you somehow bring Asim Munir into every reply. Apparently your obsession is analysis, while everyone else has a phobia.

Your entire argument is basically: the system is illegitimate, therefore no proposal coming through the system can even be discussed. That is not scrutiny, it is circular nonsense.

 

[Watandar]

Should have been made a separate province so that fund allocation would have been crystal clear...

Maybe they stopped funds for the past 3 years but rest of kp is looking more like FATA rather than vice versa since the merger..

Hence the grievance.

Yes in retrospect FATA should have become it's own province with it's own funding.

 

[Oscar]

I am pro-new provinces, but deep down I know that we'll only get 28 new fiefdoms with 28 new families instead of just 2. It might just lead to more chaos.

That is a great point.
But why?
What is that inherent "eunuch" state that would lead to Pakistanis in that situation?

Perhaps then the problem is NOT provinces or no provinces or federalism or dictator ship..
It is a grass roots issue of both purpose and organization of that purpose around the right messaging.

 

[Oscar]

If those with the greatest power (generals) are dumb then why do we think that whatever system is best will never get implemented? Sirf fauji hi aql-e-qul hai mulk main?

And if no change happens, then why go through the whole exercise in the first place?


Because you are lazy. Doing actual homework to draw administrative units and do some sociodemographic surveys and studies is a futile exercise, we'll just yolo boundaries and it's far easier to create them on ethnic grounds.

Again, IDK why your whole post is premised with PTI. Did you see me mention PTI anywhere?

No one wants faujis to get culled, no one wants IK to get a pedestal seat at the PM house, no one wants us to turn to Syria or Libya.

You can't keep hiding your incompetencies and bad ideas behind Syria and Libya and dangle that sword of jinn ajaye ga over the people. And wanting the establishment to control itself and not implement every brain wave idea does not mean you want them to be disbanded and country handed over to the wolves.

No one is calling for a revolution, we at least don't have Saddam (yet).

Read your own post - you actually "double affirmed" my point.
If the rulers are dumb, and no system works - then whither the ask for change?
There is implementation of some idea or nothing.
And the brain wave idea isnt exactly theirs - the provinces ask has been there forever - implemented badly it could be worse - implemented half assed it could be worse - nothing implemented at all could also be worse.


I can bring in PTI as much as I want as the example for "cull the fauj" as some systematic change - EVERYONE of the members that thanked your post gleefully posted that multiple times. Therefore, there is some alignment in ideas is there not?

On the one hand I - who you know very well as a critic of the fauj - can point out that culling the fauj is a bad idea because that the termites(aka elite capture through the fauj) has left the country is also the only foundation left to try and build something new on - and if I use Syria and LIbya as an example of where similar aspects of extreme replacement have led to xyz - why is that a bad example?

Which goes back to the other article I posted - you cannot get change in ANY meaningful capacity unless you incite change in the fauj - and that change has to be organic and within the overall mindset of the fauj too. Which we all are assuming as one holistic thinking ideal - even though in the context of organization and mob mentality they do tend to behave like that - and you do want that in many ways.

Otherwise -
All of this pro and anti fauj stuff is just...what the fauj does best anyway.

 

[SteppeWolff]

Yes in retrospect FATA should have become it's own province with it's own funding.

Dont know about that but merging FATA with KPK genuinely has been disastrous for KP.

Nonetheless, more than provinces, Pakistan needs empowered local bodies, otherwise new provinces will become fiefdoms too

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Jango]

Fair enough, you personally did not mention IK. Now lets look at the “sense” in the rest of your argument.

You demand parliamentary debate, then declare Parliament a sham, You demand a plan , then reject it before one is even presented . You ask for public consent , then claim a referendum contradicts Article 239, when one establishes public opinion and the other completes the constitutional process .

Now you get the issue with what has been happening in this country, or not?

It's like you see a bottle of Aqua Regia...and you read all it's properties, but the conclusion you get at the end is it's orange in color, not that it's an acid.

Isi liay kehte hain aik jhoot ko chupanay kay liay 100 bolnay partay hain, same concept.

For how long are you gonna keep putting a band aid on your misdeeds from the past and want a fresh start?

You ask why local governments cannot be empowered, as if local empowerment and smaller provinces are somehow mutually exclusive.

Yes they are, come on man are you even serious? If they are not, then how? How small of a province do we need? What is the ideal size? 200k sqkm? 400? 100? Which mechanism prevents a larger province from devolving government powers that a smaller province won't?

I mean if you really think that the reason for not having strong LG's is that provinces are too large, I think we need to be having a different discussion my friend.

Then you compare changing administrative boundaries with somebody stealing your house. Brilliant constitutional analysis.

It's not a constitutional analysis, stop throwing buzzwords around for no reason. You used political worship before, now this. They just don't fit.

Secondly, go ahead and read up on what Sindhi leaders are saying.

And after accusing me of seeing IK everywhere, you somehow bring Asim Munir into every reply.

Again, who is running the country? By default it's him? So who else do you blame for something going wrong or you disagree with? Martians?

You tell me who is driving this decision and I will take his name. Sheikh Rashid? Nawaz Sharif? Ashraf Karyanay wala? Yahoodi? Goldsmith?

Apparently your obsession is analysis, while everyone else has a phobia.

Person A makes a decision X. I do not agree with X. I say X is a bad idea, and most of their other ideas are bad so A should just sit down. How is that obsession? The man is practically effecting our lives materially, and you label even a critique of his policies as obsessions? Shah ki itni wafadari?

Your entire argument is basically: the system is illegitimate, therefore no proposal coming through the system can even be discussed. That is not scrutiny, it is circular nonsense.

Precisely.

And your argument is that mitti pao, what happened happened, let's move on. Now it totally makes sense why the 'nazrya-e-zaroorat' BS is always so readily accepted in this country by everyone.

Loose analogy, I know you like to get into pointless semantics and miss the forest for the trees, but consider a qabza mafia making decisions on behalf of some other landowners. You can't say 3 years down the line oh well, ab ho chuka, let's just move on and keep listening to the land grabbers.

 

[Jango]

Read your own post - you actually "double affirmed" my point.
If the rulers are dumb, and no system works - then whither the ask for change?

So you wanna just be stuck in the mud, content with your pathetic state of affairs?

There is implementation of some idea or nothing.
And the brain wave idea isnt exactly theirs - the provinces ask has been there forever - implemented badly it could be worse - implemented half assed it could be worse - nothing implemented at all could also be worse.

So we just want to do something because nothing else worked, even though we don't really know how it will pan out because we haven't really given it a proper thought, just vibes?

I can bring in PTI as much as I want as the example for "cull the fauj" as some systematic change - EVERYONE of the members that thanked your post gleefully posted that multiple times. Therefore, there is some alignment in ideas is there not?

What does that have to do with me or what I wrote? Even I don't know the guys who liked my post

On the one hand I - who you know very well as a critic of the fauj - can point out that culling the fauj is a bad idea because that the termites(aka elite capture through the fauj) has left the country is also the only foundation left to try and build something new on - and if I use Syria and LIbya as an example of where similar aspects of extreme replacement have led to xyz - why is that a bad example?

1- No one is advocating for a culling. You are just making an argument on my behalf and then wanting to negate it. Keeping everyone in their defined roles doesn't mean you want anyone culled. That just means that you don't need special tax exemptions for NLC and give no bid first serve contracts to FWO.

Using Syria and Lybia as a constant boogeyman to scare people off from change is dishonest. You not getting all your post retirement perks, and loosening your stranglehold on various aspects of Pakistani society doesn't mean your warfighting capabilities take a hit.

Which goes back to the other article I posted - you cannot get change in ANY meaningful capacity unless you incite change in the fauj - and that change has to be organic and within the overall mindset of the fauj too. Which we all are assuming as one holistic thinking ideal - even though in the context of organization and mob mentality they do tend to behave like that - and you do want that in many ways.

Don't disagree. But then why do we all see at the fauj as the default and the thing that either needs to change, or the one we look up to? The political and other segments have to take the charge and actually assert themselves, but that won't happen because everyone is compromised at some level.