Operation True Promise II - dozens of Iranian ballistic missiles hit Israel

[Bengal71]

You have indicated nothing other than your personal bias and cant even offer references to the sources you claim.

Let’s agree to disagree that you using Fiqh in any of your statements

I am happy to agree to disagree. If you go ahead and read up on specific ruling on permissibility of killing civilians when enemy armies kill Muslim civilians, that will be good.

 

[Oscar]

He and the rest are talking about normal circumstances where the Muslim armies meet the enemy armes and the battle is restricted among the combatants (i.e., between the warriors only).

The situation here with Israel is specific whereby the enemy relies on mass killing of Muslim civilians as tool to create fear and as a deterrent. In these situations, the fiqh of jihad allows for the Muslims to target the civilians of the enemy, otherwise the enemy armies will have an upper hand and Muslims will be greatly disadvantaged and will likely lead to a defeat.

There is a trend among Muslims in recent times to propagate Islam as all lovey dovey, similar to the concept of turning the other cheek as in Christianity. This has been propagated by the ulama post 9/11 in an effort to reduce hatred against the Muslims, Islam was propagated as ALL PEACE and no fighting at all. People who are quoting some ayah and ahadith trying to prove they know the essence of Islam and it's all peace all the way no matter what the enemy does to us, these people are those who didn't dive into the subject.

General guideline:

It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.

Specific:
It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them.

Above is an example only, there is far more.


@Oscar

Once again - all of it is IRRELEVANT personal opinion and ideals that have no ground in Fiqh.

Just feathers to make a crow to try and present an opinion by you.

The ONLY actual “proof” is that last example - please bring more if you expect to be taken seriously other than just out for personal characteristics blood which is fine - but don’t use Islam as the tissue paper to wipe your bloodlust.

When the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “They are from them,” it referred to the unintentional harm to women and children during such raids, not permission to target them intentionally.

Imam Nawawi (in his book Sharj Sahih Muslim) explained that this refers to accidental harm in the chaos of night raids, not deliberate targeting of women and children, which remains forbidden.

In Fath al-Bari, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani states that Islamic rules of warfare forbid intentional harm to non-combatants - but acknowledges that unintended casualties in military operations can occur.

Al-Shawkaani (in Nayl al-Awtar) confirms that while the hadith recognizes collateral damage, it upholds the principle that non-combatants should not be deliberately targeted.

That is referenced with Scholars who do not share your interpretation - who did you reference?

 

[Oscar]

I am happy to agree to disagree. If you go ahead and read up on specific ruling on permissibility of killing civilians when enemy armies kill Muslim civilians, that will be good.

I already have and provided more proof than you have bothered to - so the argument is available for all those to see with reference

 

[Bengal71]

I already have and provided more proof than you have bothered to - so the argument is available for all those to see with reference

Alright.

Consider the scenario:

Enemy army relies on mass killing of muslim civilians to deter muslims from fighting, uses it as a deterrent. What's the ruling for muslim army in regards to attacking enemy civilians in the way? According to you, Muslims should not attack enemy civilians even though the enemy army can't be deterred and will lead to a defeat?

 

[Mehdipersian]

Where does it allow it - please quote a fiqh , Hadiath

ANYTHING!!

The whole idea is that muslims will always strike to be morally superior and be examples of Ashraf ul Makhlooq. You will not rape a 5 year old girl even if yours was!

فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُوا عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ

بقره/ 178

So should anyone aggress against you, assail him in the manner he assailed you, and be wary of Allah, and know that Allah is with the Godwary

 

[Bengal71]

فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُوا عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ

بقره/ 178

So should anyone aggress against you, assail him in the manner he assailed you, and be wary of Allah, and know that Allah is with the Godwary

There is ruling about this specific scenario where the enemy deliberately kills mass muslim civilians as a tactic of war and in this scenario whether Muslim armies are permitted to do the same or not, it's permissible in the specific scenario. I had the book saved in my PC, deleted all Jihadi books and videos because of the reason I live in the west. It's the reason I don't want to talk about it and post in an online forum. It's all peace and everything is peaceful in Islam is easy to post online which other users are doing.

 

[Mehdipersian]

There is ruling about this specific scenario where the enemy deliberately kills mass muslim civilians as a tactic of war and in this scenario whether Muslim armies are permitted to do the same or not, it's permissible in the specific scenario. I had the book saved in my PC, deleted all Jihadi books and videos because of the reason I live in the west. It's the reason I don't want to talk about it and post in an online forum. It's all peace and everything is peaceful in Islam is easy to post online which other users are doing.

Yes, you are right, but in the tafsir 194 of Surah Al-Baqarah of the Qur'an, it is said that you should observe ethics in war as much as possible.

 

[Bengal71]

Yes, you are right, but in the tafsir 194 of Surah Al-Baqarah of the Qur'an, it is said that you should observe ethics in war as much as possible.

General ruling, yes. Not when the enemy uses mass killing of muslims as a tactic of war. I am trying to find the fatawa of classical scholars. I had many of them but I deleted.

 

[Garcia Sea]

The resistance in the Middle East is too concerned with a clean fight.
When Saudi Arabia invaded Yemen and spent the day indiscriminately bombing the country, the Yemenis only launched pinpoint counterattacks on refineries and bases, with little effect.
On the other hand, the Taliban, who had no qualms about suicide bombings and bombings of their own civilians, won the war.
Such is the nature of war, unfortunately.

 

[hasn2009]

Once again - all of it is IRRELEVANT personal opinion and ideals that have no ground in Fiqh.

Just feathers to make a crow to try and present an opinion by you.

The ONLY actual “proof” is that last example - please bring more if you expect to be taken seriously other than just out for personal characteristics blood which is fine - but don’t use Islam as the tissue paper to wipe your bloodlust.

When the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “They are from them,” it referred to the unintentional harm to women and children during such raids, not permission to target them intentionally.

Imam Nawawi (in his book Sharj Sahih Muslim) explained that this refers to accidental harm in the chaos of night raids, not deliberate targeting of women and children, which remains forbidden.

In Fath al-Bari, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani states that Islamic rules of warfare forbid intentional harm to non-combatants - but acknowledges that unintended casualties in military operations can occur.

Al-Shawkaani (in Nayl al-Awtar) confirms that while the hadith recognizes collateral damage, it upholds the principle that non-combatants should not be deliberately targeted.

That is referenced with Scholars who do not share your interpretation - who did you reference?

Question is, can we consider Israeli settlers civilians? I mean they stubbornly stole the land of Palestinians and are still occupying it.
For example, if someone enters your house, kill your family, forcefully expels you out and start living there, what would be the ruling then?

 

[Bengal71]

Yes, you are right, but in the tafsir 194 of Surah Al-Baqarah of the Qur'an, it is said that you should observe ethics in war as much as possible.

I have found something although I was trying to download the Siyarul Kabir of Imam Muhammad Ibn Hasan al-Shaibani, could not download it.

I have however found detailed response from the following website that quotes numerous scholars, it's unfortunately in Bangla. The page can be fully translated by google.

মুসলিমদের সাথে যুদ্ধরত দেশসমূহের জনসাধারণকে হামলার লক্ষ্যবস্তু বানানোর বিধান! | দারুল ইলম

www.darulilm.org

Here is the translated page:

মুসলিমদের সাথে যুদ্ধরত দেশসমূহের জনসাধারণকে হামলার লক্ষ্যবস্তু বানানোর বিধান! | দারুল ইলম

www-darulilm-org.translate.goog

@hasn2009 @Oscar

That's the end of it. God knows I am now being watched by the ASIO in Australia or not.

 

[hasn2009]

I have sound something although I was trying to downlowd the Siyarul Kabir of Imam Muhammad Ibn Hasan al-Shaibani, could not download it.

I have however found detailed response from the following website that quotes numerous scholars, it's unfortunately in Bangla. The page can be fully translated by google.

মুসলিমদের সাথে যুদ্ধরত দেশসমূহের জনসাধারণকে হামলার লক্ষ্যবস্তু বানানোর বিধান! | দারুল ইলম

www.darulilm.org

Here is the translated page:

মুসলিমদের সাথে যুদ্ধরত দেশসমূহের জনসাধারণকে হামলার লক্ষ্যবস্তু বানানোর বিধান! | দারুল ইলম

www-darulilm-org.translate.goog

@hasn2009 @Oscar

That's the end of it. God knows I am now being watched by the ASIO in Australia or not.

Khamenie himself is a faqih/jurist/mufti and he said al-aqsa flood was legal. So i guess its pretty clear for Iranians and their followers

 

[Bengal71]

Khamenie himself is a faqih/jurist/mufti and he said al-aqsa flood was legal. So i guess its pretty clear for Iranians and their followers

Not for Iranians only, it's clear and well understood among the classical ulama of Shia and Sunni both. Any prohibition that hinders the Jihad and hinders Muslims from victory is no prohibition at all.

Also Khamieni knows it's permissible to indiscriminately bombard Israeli population centers because the Israelis have done so as a tool/tactic of war against Muslims. They haven't done it so far because of tactical/strategic reasons. If it warrants, Iran will target civilian centers exactly like Israelis did and they will not be sinful for that.

 

[Mehdipersian]

Not for Iranians only, it's clear and well understood among the classical ulama of Shia and Sunni both. Any prohibition that hinders the Jihad and hinders Muslims from victory is no prohibition at all.

Also Khamieni knows it's permissible to indiscriminately bombard Israeli population centers because the Israelis have done so as a tool/tactic of war against Muslims. They haven't done it so far because of tactical/strategic reasons. If it warrants, Iran will target civilian centers exactly like Israelis did and they will not be sinful for that.

According to Imam Khamenei's fatwa, there are no civilians in Israel. Everyone who lives in Israel is part of the Israeli army to occupy Muslim lands.

 

[Immortals]

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