PA Options against Indian Armour - ATGMs on MANPADS & Attack Gunship Helicopter - News & Discussions

It has to be said with admiration and (due) regard - your knowledge of matters miliary is legendary.


Now THAT is quite possible.
Let's see.
  1. Haider - 179
  2. Al Khalid - 300
  3. Al Khalid I - 110
  4. T80UD - 320
  5. Al Zarrar - 500
  6. Type 85 - 268
  7. Type 69 - 400
  8. Type 59 - 600
As an Indian, my blood freezes to think of what the numbers might have been, if the PA believed tank warfare.

Quite possible. It never happened; western propaganda to fool innocent Chinese armament firms into making thousands of tanks.
just for reference, Known Pakistani fleet:

1. VT-4/Haider ~ 150 + Continued production, unknown number planned
2. AK-1 = 120 (confirmed from HIT production records)
3. AK = 321 (confirmed from HIT production records)
4. T80UD = 311
5. Type 85UG ~ 280
6. Al-Zarrar ~ 563 (confirmed from HIT production records) + 142 (later productions) + more In production
7. Type 69 ~ 200 (Mostly reserve, one squadron with FC, two with army active)
8. Type 59 - several hundred, mostly in reserve, but at least two regts in active service (might be outdated).


Indian fleet:
1. T90MS - 10 delivered in 2024, 454 more on order.
2. T90S = 1364 (Confirmed deliveries)
3. T72 Modernized ~ 972 (Indian production sources)
4. T72 Stock ~ 500 active, nearly 800 in reserve
5. Arjun - 126 (118 more were ordered but I believe this has been canceled)

(Most of this is from open sources so it may vary wildly; but I’d call these good educated guesses).

Seems No one told these two that tanks went obsolete.
 
doesnt matter...

the Ukraine war showed these are nothing more than magnets for drones and anti tank system. in the modern battlefield the tank has limited use... in fact Russian soldiers were using motor cycles to get around the battle field instead of armoured vehicles
I disagree in particular to the circumstances of the Indo-Pakistan front. Revelations in Ukraine should be viewed cautiously, as it is a peculiar front in that both sides had substantial soviet-era stockpiles and heavy equipments intended to arm group armies now repurposed for brigades or even battalion level engagements, fighting in the donbass where the level of urbanization, thanks to soviet-era infrastructure, is unusually high. It meant that the front is unusually densely populated with platforms like artillery and air defense systems, as well as garrisoned towns and small cities, which made mobile mechanized field warfare with large breakthroughs and encirclements difficult.

This is not the case for the Indo-Pakistan front, where substantially large areas of flood plains and deserts are ideal for superior numbers of Indian motorized forces to maneuver and launch concentrated breakthroughs. Indian army also possess a substantial number of, albeit outdated, soviet-era self-propelled AD systems that have proved themselves still competent against most attack drones and loitering munitions in Ukraine. In this sense, where Pakistan lines are stretched thinner and without the luxury to litter the entire length of the front with garrisoned positions where drones can operate out of.

Anti-tank weapons does not make tanks obsolete, as it has been for anti-tank rifles, towed anti-tank guns, self-propelled tank destroyers, man portable AT launchers, ATGMs, and as it is with FPV drones and loitering munitions. Russian soldiers use electric scooters and dirt bikes primarily when traversing along roads within Russian controlled areas that’s still contested by Ukrainian FPV strikes, where a single drone strike would not be able to incur serious losses in expensive vehicles or multiple personnel. When conducting offensives, especially against garrisoned towns and villages, it is still customary where 1-2 tanks along with 1-2 BMPs or BTRs are needed, as tanks remain the only viable portfolio of lethality against most targets hard and soft, tactical maneuverability, and survivability. Until something can do the tank’s job but better, tanks will never be obsolete. Whenever you try to go without tanks where tanks are needed, you get circumstances like in the 2023 Zaporizhia Counteroffensive, where large columns of Ukrainian wheeled vehicles like MRAP and Maxxpro, alongside embarked infantry, suffered heavy losses for no gains.
 
@Joe Shearer

Even drones and ground attack missiles can be repelled or defeated before going into action.

Indeed, thanks.

and perhaps two or three regrettable but inevitable wars will give us the next normal.

Now that is making me shiver. Let us hope IND isn't involved in these inevitable wars.

Regards
 
A Rough estimate is 2100 MBTs (Haider, AK-1, AK, UD, Type 85 and AZ) Excluding Active Type 59s/69s and Reserve Type 59/69s.

The IA fields roughly 3300 MBTs (T90S, T72 CIA, T72, Arjuns) excluding T72s in reserve.

Both sides have in excess of 400 more planned/On order.

just for reference, Known Pakistani fleet:

1. VT-4/Haider ~ 150 + Continued production, unknown number planned
2. AK-1 = 120 (confirmed from HIT production records)
3. AK = 321 (confirmed from HIT production records)
4. T80UD = 311
5. Type 85UG ~ 280
6. Al-Zarrar ~ 563 (confirmed from HIT production records) + 142 (later productions) + more In production
7. Type 69 ~ 200 (Mostly reserve, one squadron with FC, two with army active)
8. Type 59 - several hundred, mostly in reserve, but at least two regts in active service (might be outdated).


Indian fleet:
1. T90MS - 10 delivered in 2024, 454 more on order.
2. T90S = 1364 (Confirmed deliveries)
3. T72 Modernized ~ 972 (Indian production sources)
4. T72 Stock ~ 500 active, nearly 800 in reserve
5. Arjun - 126 (118 more were ordered but I believe this has been canceled)

(Most of this is from open sources so it may vary wildly; but I’d call these good educated guesses).

Seems No one told these two that tanks went obsolete.
Your numbers don't match....your numbers.

First post you said 2100 including Haider/AK/UD/T85/AZ and excluding Type59/69 active and reserve.

2nd post the total of Haider/AK/UD/T85/AZ is 1887. Type 59/69 active or reserve are separate.

Similar case with the indian army numbers in both posts.
 
Your numbers don't match....your numbers.

First post you said 2100 including Haider/AK/UD/T85/AZ and excluding Type59/69 active and reserve.

2nd post the total of Haider/AK/UD/T85/AZ is 1887. Type 59/69 active or reserve are separate.

Similar case with the indian army numbers in both posts.
We really don't need to take these numbers too strictly; there will be variations.

What matters is first, the overall numbers of effective systems that can be deployed; second, their comparative effectiveness, against other tanks, against tank destroyers/ anti-tank artillery, against infantry/mechanised infantry, and in the face of air attack.
Third, the doctrine that governs their deployment. Fourth, the facilities for repair and maintenance, and the state of readiness of the machines. Fifth, the suitability of the terrain for their deployment.

One can go on adding points to ponder in this manner, but the numbers may vary by a hundred this way or that, without making the slightest difference.
 
@Joe Shearer

Even drones and ground attack missiles can be repelled or defeated before going into action.

Indeed, thanks.

and perhaps two or three regrettable but inevitable wars will give us the next normal.

Now that is making me shiver. Let us hope IND isn't involved in these inevitable wars.

Regards
It would be great if that shivering were universal.
Unfortunately, that is unlikely; it is those who are not shivering who will kill thousands and millions.
The fact is that everybody is sitting around trying to figure out what will happen in the next clash, and nobody knows for sure.
 
Your numbers don't match....your numbers.

First post you said 2100 including Haider/AK/UD/T85/AZ and excluding Type59/69 active and reserve.

2nd post the total of Haider/AK/UD/T85/AZ is 1887. Type 59/69 active or reserve are separate.

Similar case with the indian army numbers in both posts.
That’s actually not an error;

2100~ is the number of Active MBTs PA should have (Type 59/69 are not modern MBTs which is why I excluded them, and this number is based off no. of regiments, though we did this calculation a few years ago so this will have changed). However, the last production and delivery count I could verify was around the 1900 mark in late 2023 (and even a lot of that was going off secondary sources, excluding the count for the AK, AK-1 and first two batches of AZs which I could verify with HIT). As you can see there is a discrepancy, which results from there just not being reliable sources.

So at the very minimum PA has 1800-1900 MBTs, and at the higher end 2100-2200, the rest are Type 59s & 69s. Which depending on how many are in active or reserve make up the final figure. Once again, a disclaimer: these could be entirely wrong and Panzerkiel is laughing at us, but they are educated guesses and sourced where possible.

For IA, the numbers are easier to track down given the T90, T72 CIA and Arjun delivery numbers are public, the unknown quantity is older T72s. I mentioned 3300 excluding reserves in the first post (a rough guess) and a more accurate count (~3000) in the second, they’re about the same number, with the only variance coming from how many T72s are in reserve or active (unknown, so could range from 2900 all the way to 3500?)
 
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just for reference, Known Pakistani fleet:

1. VT-4/Haider ~ 150 + Continued production, unknown number planned
2. AK-1 = 120 (confirmed from HIT production records)
3. AK = 321 (confirmed from HIT production records)
4. T80UD = 311
5. Type 85UG ~ 280
6. Al-Zarrar ~ 563 (confirmed from HIT production records) + 142 (later productions) + more In production
7. Type 69 ~ 200 (Mostly reserve, one squadron with FC, two with army active)
8. Type 59 - several hundred, mostly in reserve, but at least two regts in active service (might be outdated).


Indian fleet:
1. T90MS - 10 delivered in 2024, 454 more on order.
2. T90S = 1364 (Confirmed deliveries)
3. T72 Modernized ~ 972 (Indian production sources)
4. T72 Stock ~ 500 active, nearly 800 in reserve
5. Arjun - 126 (118 more were ordered but I believe this has been canceled)

(Most of this is from open sources so it may vary wildly; but I’d call these good educated guesses).

Seems No one told these two that tanks went obsolete.

Will all type 59s eventually be upgraded to Al Zarrar status?
 
Will all type 59s eventually be upgraded to Al Zarrar status?
Unlikely, that would be more MBTs than PA requires, especially considering they’re not modern.

The AZ project was restarted recently to cover for the gaps left by low number of AK/AK-1s and slow Haider delivery + an expectation that the UDs might need to be retired early. Otherwise the AZ project might have ended already.
 
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Indian fleet:
1. T90MS - 10 delivered in 2024, 454 more on order.
2. T90S = 1364 (Confirmed deliveries)
3. T72 Modernized ~ 972 (Indian production sources)
4. T72 Stock ~ 500 active, nearly 800 in reserve
5. Arjun - 126 (118 more were ordered but I believe this has been canceled)

(Most of this is from open sources so it may vary wildly; but I’d call these good educated guesses).

Seems No one told these two that tanks went obsolete.
T-90MS? that's a revelation
 
T-90MS? that's a revelation
They were ordered in 2019 - the delivery is extremely delayed (first 10 delivered in June 2024). They’re not the same T90MS you see in Russia, these are localized Indian variants - India calls them T90 MK.III (MK.1 was the original variant they got, MK-II was their improved Bhishma variant).

 
I disagree in particular to the circumstances of the Indo-Pakistan front. Revelations in Ukraine should be viewed cautiously, as it is a peculiar front in that both sides had substantial soviet-era stockpiles and heavy equipments intended to arm group armies now repurposed for brigades or even battalion level engagements, fighting in the donbass where the level of urbanization, thanks to soviet-era infrastructure, is unusually high. It meant that the front is unusually densely populated with platforms like artillery and air defense systems, as well as garrisoned towns and small cities, which made mobile mechanized field warfare with large breakthroughs and encirclements difficult.

This is not the case for the Indo-Pakistan front, where substantially large areas of flood plains and deserts are ideal for superior numbers of Indian motorized forces to maneuver and launch concentrated breakthroughs. Indian army also possess a substantial number of, albeit outdated, soviet-era self-propelled AD systems that have proved themselves still competent against most attack drones and loitering munitions in Ukraine. In this sense, where Pakistan lines are stretched thinner and without the luxury to litter the entire length of the front with garrisoned positions where drones can operate out of.

Anti-tank weapons does not make tanks obsolete, as it has been for anti-tank rifles, towed anti-tank guns, self-propelled tank destroyers, man portable AT launchers, ATGMs, and as it is with FPV drones and loitering munitions. Russian soldiers use electric scooters and dirt bikes primarily when traversing along roads within Russian controlled areas that’s still contested by Ukrainian FPV strikes, where a single drone strike would not be able to incur serious losses in expensive vehicles or multiple personnel. When conducting offensives, especially against garrisoned towns and villages, it is still customary where 1-2 tanks along with 1-2 BMPs or BTRs are needed, as tanks remain the only viable portfolio of lethality against most targets hard and soft, tactical maneuverability, and survivability. Until something can do the tank’s job but better, tanks will never be obsolete. Whenever you try to go without tanks where tanks are needed, you get circumstances like in the 2023 Zaporizhia Counteroffensive, where large columns of Ukrainian wheeled vehicles like MRAP and Maxxpro, alongside embarked infantry, suffered heavy losses for no gains.


nicely argued but... this is just theory based.

The reality is armour in the sub continent has limited uses mainly as to "de-dent" penetrations ..

Lets look at the facts

1) History: Battles of Chiwinda 1965 and Longwala 1971 has shown neither armies have made effective breakthrough using armor. We dont have great record of armored warfare ie both armies. Unstandable as both were effectively infantry based army since partition and the legacy has continued.

2) The geography heavily favors the defender... the places that armor can be used as nothing more than prepared killing fields.. oh and Pakistan army loves mines..

In 1971 the indian army captured large parts of Pakistani empty deserts.. looks impressive for propaganda purposes but it was part of Pakistan tactic of elastic defense. In the modern warfare with supply lines stretched and small teams of ATM 4x4 , drones etc good luck trying to resupply energy and ammo hungry armored divisons ..

3) Only three nations on earth can successfully used combined arms ware fare ie USA, Russia and possibly China. This method of warfare is highly complex needs constant training , coordination between interarms and exercises and it is very expensive. check out Scott's Ritter V long on this it is very informative. When is it the last time India did such an exercise ? .. see the point

Pakistan army also invested into combine arms warfare as part of it's offensive defense strategy but it also knows it can only push back incursions by india ... there is no chance of armor rolling down Srinagar streets to liberate Occupied Kashmir. They are not under any illusion.

4) Pakistan in all its wars has always managed maintain local air superiority or the very least heavily contest airspace in west Pakistan. Today even more so. what ever gaps that do happen can be covered by AirPower. Pakistan has plenty of mirages and F7PG that do the down and dirty work of CAS

5) Indian armoured formations are in poor shape , they lack the effective logistics, training and the combined armed support they need to conduct the armored thrust that General Sundarji once dreamt of.

6) so yes armor is important but it is no longer the queen of battle and as destructive tech improves in relation to miniaturisation of weapons armored warfare is going to be unlikely event in the sub continent. Tanks dont become obsolete just less relevant. Yes anti tank rifles have been around since WW2 and so have panzerfauset that knocked thousands of T-34.. .. and this is india they have no appetite of losses .. nor can they mass produce armor. Pakistan situation is way better.. china will ensure any replacement of losses.

Jane's Defense had an article on such a situation and their assessment was indian military was unlikely to make much headway despite their numbers and firepower.

there is much more but I had a conversation with PAF people many years before and indian armor threat wasn't a big deal for them as they said they have many counters against indian armor at that time .. For every sword the indian army has the Pakistan army has a shield. The main worry was in the air was lack of BVRs and AWACS... that was in 1990s.

not much has decisively changed since then.
 
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Unlikely, that would be more MBTs than PA requires, especially considering they’re not modern.

The AZ project was restarted recently to cover for the gaps left by low number of AK/AK-1s and slow Haider delivery + an expectation that the UDs might need to be retired early. Otherwise the AZ project might have ended already.
AZ has same gun as AZ I think it packs punch for kill. However, it lacks protection. But I believe Chinese tanks are not rightly protected. AZ is good and Type 85 are also good against most tanks India packs. only t90MS is challenge. The reason as I said All tanks except maybe Haider has new gun. So they all fire same rounds. The thermal sights on AZ are also good.

Mods, Why in wikipedia Al Zarrar early prototype pic is the main pic. sadly. Who is moderator of alzarrar ?

I have updated the pic on Wiki.
 
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just for reference, Known Pakistani fleet:

1. VT-4/Haider ~ 150 + Continued production, unknown number planned
2. AK-1 = 120 (confirmed from HIT production records)
3. AK = 321 (confirmed from HIT production records)
4. T80UD = 311
5. Type 85UG ~ 280
6. Al-Zarrar ~ 563 (confirmed from HIT production records) + 142 (later productions) + more In production
7. Type 69 ~ 200 (Mostly reserve, one squadron with FC, two with army active)
8. Type 59 - several hundred, mostly in reserve, but at least two regts in active service (might be outdated).


Indian fleet:
1. T90MS - 10 delivered in 2024, 454 more on order.
2. T90S = 1364 (Confirmed deliveries)
3. T72 Modernized ~ 972 (Indian production sources)
4. T72 Stock ~ 500 active, nearly 800 in reserve
5. Arjun - 126 (118 more were ordered but I believe this has been canceled)

(Most of this is from open sources so it may vary wildly; but I’d call these good educated guesses).

Seems No one told these two that tanks went obsolete.
Online everyone is busy calling everything obsolete. "attack helicopters are obsolete due to MANPADS", "Fighter jets are obsolete due to SAMs and AAMs", "Aircraft carriers are obsolete due to AShBMs", "Surface to surface missiles and good ADs can replace fighter jets", "Tanks are obsolete due to ATGMs, drones although those drones themselves are obsolete due to C-UAS tech". I guess world should stop spending on military then :)

Other than that we have 59 Zorawar tanks on order, for mountain warfare and 295 more to be ordered in separate tender. And this tank was developed in record time after Galwan clash, certainly Indian Army doesn't consider tank warfare obsolete.
 
AZ has same gun as AZ I think it packs punch for kill. However, it lacks protection. But I believe Chinese tanks are not rightly protected. AZ is good and Type 85 are also good against most tanks India packs. only t90MS is challenge. The reason as I said All tanks except maybe Haider has new gun. So they all fire same rounds. The thermal sights on AZ are also good.

Mods, Why in wikipedia Al Zarrar early prototype pic is the main pic. sadly. Who is moderator of alzarrar ?

I have updated the pic on Wiki.
All Russian-Chinese derived 125MM guns are similar. With some modifications you could fit T90 gun into Al-Khalid and vice Versa.

All the above mentioned tanks have the same gun barrel, with the exception of the Haider which has a slightly modified one. This doesn’t really have much to do with what ammo it can fire - that’s linked to what’s available and what the autoloader can handle. Most tanks in PA can handle all types of ammunition because they all use a similar sized autoloader (Excluding AZ).

The Al-Zarrar is a glass cannon situation, but with a modern FCS and ammo it can reach out as far as a T90S, certainly further than a stock T72, tank on tank warfare is rare but whoever hits first usually wins.

The Type 85UG carries the same thermals and FCS as the Al-Khalid, and the AZs are comparable too (16 Bit FCS systems with 2nd Gen thermals in all of them).

Any Indian Tank is a real threat - it’s one of their few arms which is not divided between China and Pakistan, so they will have nearly twice the total MBTs to bring against Pakistan - The T90S and MS are very good tanks, “if employed well”
 

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