PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[bravo_1]

These phenomena exist in any business involving Chinese, whether in China or abroad.

Agreed, these things are not only limited to chinese here but also for European engineers for example our private industries of textile and goods "if" they are using some latest machinery from west they would require engineers from their also if something went wrong in machinery if the problem cant be solved by our engineers and believe me or not mf's charge thousand of $ per hour whether they are working or not lol.

 

[Michael]

Agreed, these things are not only limited to chinese here but also for European engineers for example our private industries of textile and goods "if" they are using some latest machinery from west they would require engineers from their also if something went wrong in machinery if the problem cant be solved by our engineers and believe me or not mf's charge thousand of $ per hour whether they are working or not lol.

In China, the average salary for a technical engineer ranges from 10,000 to 100,000 RMB per month. A few senior engineers can earn 100,000 to 1,000,000 RMB per month, and a very few can exceed 1,000,000 RMB per month.

If an engineer is sent from China to Pakistan to handle technical issues, their salary will need to be doubled, typically 1.5x to 3x their salary. This includes travel expenses such as transportation, food, and lodging, as well as a reasonable amount of company profit.

This is a normal salary structure for expatriate engineers.

If the final salary paid is several times this amount, then there are significant hidden costs involved.

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In many countries, local officials are prone to widespread corruption, especially among smaller government officials. When Chinese companies conduct business in these countries, local officials often demand large bribes. Typically, the Chinese companies pay these fees, but these expenses are included in their costs and ultimately reflected in the Chinese companies' quotes.

However, the net profit of these Chinese companies remains at a reasonable level. Otherwise, their living space will be squeezed out by other Chinese companies.

 

[Michael]

That goes for most of the world, Tobacco industry everywhere is massively profitable.

China National Tobacco Corporation is the most profitable company in the world, unrivaled by any other.

Its pre-tax profits are higher than those of China's four largest state-owned banks, PetroChina, and Sinopec combined. None of the most profitable Western companies, such as Apple, Saudi Aramco, Berkshire Hathaway, British American Tobacco, and Philip Morris International, can rival it.

Yet, it pays over a trillion RMB in taxes to the Chinese government annually, an amount roughly equivalent to China's total military spending. And it retains a substantial profit after that...

However, it doesn't appear on any global rankings. Therefore, few outside the world know about it.

 

[rafale]

Those banks are also influenced by geopolitics - nothing lives in a bubble.

....which is why i mentioned, that normally US based banks and institutions won't lend in Pakistani projects, even private sector ones......yet now they seem to be opening up. Of course there are some odd private equity or VC firms with Pakistani diaspora trying to break in, but that's barely a million or few million USD worth investments in start ups.

 

[rafale]

Oh sir u haven't heard about k3 power plant in Karachi. My friends did a RFO thier in which basically they maintain all the machines annually etc. They said Chinese charge thousands of dollars for simple tools and broken parts even though we prefer German tools and we have some in there but basically we cant produce and introduce our tools made by our engineers that too in very little cost bcz of contract or whatever

yaar.....it is also poor mentality by Pakistanis that they mention such things, K3 is done by Chinese contractors.......i know plenty a people there, some of whom have now left pakistan........i myself am experienced across 4 large power stations that were built by Chinese contractors..........i have worked with equipment from GE/Siemens, proper heavy duty stuff....and also Chinese........the quality of Chinese stuff is not always upto mark...but then they also cost less.

Have experienced more than a couple times, where a GE/Siemens/Western origin single component as expensive a new Fortuner in Pakistan failed and had to be replaced......and cheap chinese ones which kept on chugging.

Also, we actually don't make quality tools or machines.......this is mostly said by people who would want contracts to go to them or their family trading firms.........

We established Pakistan Machine Tools Factory........and look at condition it ended up in......look at Steel Mill....and all the DISCOS and GENCOS.

Government run power plants/industries have this problem big time....contracts are always awarded where kick backs can be made easily. So Chinese jacking up the prices is because i can guarantee 100% that people up the chain in the plant and in procurement all getting their cut. Chinese just want to sell their stuff. Haven't american/european firms been found guilty of bribing foreign nations to award contracts to their own companies?

I have to routinely buy stuff such as vibration monitoring equipment spare parts or servos or other protection systems.......and guess what? Western companies ask for end user certificate to be signed by us that we will not re-export this product to Iran/Syria/North Korea/Libya etc. And this is civilian industrial stuff. So people saying that western items don't come with strings attached or somehow you can always play the geopolitics in your favor, especially for defense related items, are just living in a fools world.

 

[Toxic]

China National Tobacco Corporation is the most profitable company in the world, unrivaled by any other.

Its pre-tax profits are higher than those of China's four largest state-owned banks, PetroChina, and Sinopec combined. None of the most profitable Western companies, such as Apple, Saudi Aramco, Berkshire Hathaway, British American Tobacco, and Philip Morris International, can rival it.

Yet, it pays over a trillion RMB in taxes to the Chinese government annually, an amount roughly equivalent to China's total military spending. And it retains a substantial profit after that...

However, it doesn't appear on any global rankings. Therefore, few outside the world know about it.

Sure I don't doubt that but I was making a general statement that the same is true for most of the world, they might not be anywhere big as CNTC but that doesn't mean that they aren't still hugely profitable relative to their size, government regulators also don't go after Tabocco companies because they are a huge source of Tax revenue.

 

[Oscar]

....which is why i mentioned, that normally US based banks and institutions won't lend in Pakistani projects, even private sector ones......yet now they seem to be opening up. Of course there are some odd private equity or VC firms with Pakistani diaspora trying to break in, but that's barely a million or few million USD worth investments in start ups.

Why do you assume European banks always say yes?

 

[Oscar]

IMO its more than that, basically we lack the true industrialization and its diplomacy we just bend the knee for whatever we bring here and manufacture. I remember when PAF initiated the project Azm the ACM Sohail Aman emphasize too much for manufacturing of basic machinery and tools in inaugurated technology park earlier in Kamra but ofc project didn't go well and now we have a PFX and i dont know what they have in mind in context of industrial manufacturing.

That only happens when you make a concerted effort ala China to bring tech in. Not have it compromised immediately by anyone with vested interests in getting commission on imports.

 

[White Privilege]

What happened to the guy in the centre? He should have been the OC of no.15 but apparantely its someone else now.

He was the 'pioneer' OC, when the squadron converted and brought the J-10s to Pakistan, must have been promoted and moved out...

 

[MH.Yang]

That goes for most of the world, Tobacco industry everywhere is massively profitable.

Yes, tobacco companies around the world are lucrative, but Chinese tobacco companies are exceedingly so. China National Tobacco Corporation is a state-owned enterprise, and the profits and taxes it pays to the government each year exceed China's total military expenditure.

Precisely because these profits are handed over to the government, and because the Chinese people do not want tobacco prices to be too low, leading to an increase in smokers, they have a particular tolerance for Chinese tobacco's profits.

 

[MH.Yang]

Their radio components were of extremely trashy quality and when you ask them to improve they would ask for exorbitant prices at times we checked using a US company and the US company was quoted 1/10th of the price Pakistani ones were.

At the end of the day, that is the reality of it. Everyone is in it for the money and if you are not in a position of power then you are a sucker and the Chinese being good salespeople know this.

Now that doesn’t mean they fleece you everywhere and they will offer very good terms on loans or prices on hardware they no longer consider latest. But at the end that is what drives indigenous projects however because you are - and I apologize - a harami qaum - you are willing to cut your own futures in indigenous efforts just to make a buck and provide your children houses in New Haven Connecticut.

I'm a foreign trade manager who sells cemented carbide. In my experience working in foreign trade, any Chinese foreign trade manager's competitors are usually also from China.

If you think a Chinese salesperson's prices are excessive because of their monopoly, I think you're mistaken. If profits were truly high, there would surely be thousands of Chinese salespeople offering even better prices until profits return to normal. Because most products don't have a monopoly in China.

If you encounter a truly high price, I suggest you consider other possible reasons, such as corruption. Don't be surprised, as a foreign trade manager like me, if I'm asked for a kickback, I'll agree without hesitation and then include the kickback in the cost.

 

[Oscar]

I'm a foreign trade manager who sells cemented carbide. In my experience working in foreign trade, any Chinese foreign trade manager's competitors are usually also from China.

If you think a Chinese salesperson's prices are excessive because of their monopoly, I think you're mistaken. If profits were truly high, there would surely be thousands of Chinese salespeople offering even better prices until profits return to normal. Because most products don't have a monopoly in China.

If you encounter a truly high price, I suggest you consider other possible reasons, such as corruption. Don't be surprised, as a foreign trade manager like me, if I'm asked for a kickback, I'll agree without hesitation and then include the kickback in the cost.

Im well aware of the practices but in this case the contact was directly with the manufacturer and there were only two factories producing that set. To us it almost seemed like they were engaging in predatory pricing in coordination.

Usually when using Chinese suppliers either talking to the same factory or group the best prices and matching quality come from those who have a few years so they are reliable but not long established ones so they act as if they wont care.

It is unfair to blanket all Chinese suppliers in the same bucket but it is fair to say they (as any good business will) prioritize western customers more than anyone from South Asia.

 

[MH.Yang]

It is unfair to blanket all Chinese suppliers in the same bucket but it is fair to say they (as any good business will) prioritize western customers more than anyone from South Asia.

To be fair, that's true. Even I'm the same way. Due to price, I typically offer virgin material to Western clients and recycled material to African and Indian clients. This isn't market discrimination, but rather because virgin material prices are uncompetitive in these markets.

Of course, this perception isn't entirely accurate. For example, the core material for the tunnel boring machines India purchased in China, the shield teeth, comes from our 601 Factory. I also supplied some of the raw materials, and it's impossible to use recycled materials for such a crucial machine. Ultimately, the intended use of the product must be considered.

In other words, if your product is very important, even important enough to require a fixed supply chain manufacturer, the quality and price you receive should be the same as those in Western countries.

 

[TopGun786]

For a moment again I thought it was a PAF J-10C thread,

 

[Jeremy]

my view is simple, trust no one and diversify.

I recently ended up bumping into an Air Commodore who retired very recently.

His entire job was overseeing RD-93 MRO- he was an expert on engines and supported programs as far back as the F-6/Mirage, up to JF-17 which was his recent assignment.

He even inaugurated the RD-93 MRO facility.

We had a brief chat, due for another, but the situation is grim... when we talked about China, "Paisa hi inn ka sab kuch hai, Paisa hi inn ka khuda hai". Just a heads up we're not allowed to buy most components, including spares and equipment for the engines from the OEM. We must go via China, who does not give us the real part numbers to prevent us going to Klimov to procure, they then mark up the prices significantly and provide to us...when they're not pushing more profitable/beneficial solutions to themselves, like forcing WS-13 down PAF throat who refused, instead, jacking RD93 part prices up, again...to pressure the PAF in bending the knee.

Theres so, so many stories like this its a normal occurence.

You have always been very anti-China.
Don’t the folks on the forum know how much China sells weapons and equipment to Pakistan for? Compare it with the prices India pays for its weapons.

Another simple question:
If Pakistan directly purchases engines from Russia, will India allow the JF-17 to take off?